Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Madness the 14th: Who is bigger, Dickey or Johnson?

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I was debating Morrow. Power pitchers.

Thing is, sometimes you have little movement on the knuckle. But I'm always interested in watching knuckleballers pitch. Should be fun.

All this said, in a game 1 of a series, I'd want Dickey without a doubt. If his knuckle goes kahput, then we still got 4 or 6 games, but if it's on it'll probably be really on. That's a lot of momentum, and it will probably mess up the other team for the next couple of games. Imagine going with Johnson and Morrow for game 2 and 3 after Dickey goes 9 innings in game 1. :laugh:
 
Just curious to the answers since they asked on The Score. If Jays are in game 7 of the WS, who do you want starting?

My pick is Johnson. Not sure I'd want a 80 mph pitcher pitching. Yes it's a knuckleball, a very good one but its sometimes risky.

Well my answer would be simple. Wait until the season is over and see who's been our best pitcher through the season because it could simply be any of the 5. From there you wait and see who performs the best in the post season and go with whoever seems to be playing best under the pressure. Way way to early to even speculate such a thing really.
 
You were trying to make a case that EE had a good BB% before, when you clearly stated he didn't.

I think you need to go back, re-read my posts and get back to me.

At no point did I state that EE did not have good BB%.
 
The National Sports near me is having a pretty big sale... looking for advice haha; the jerseys are on sale.

I really like Rasmus (but there's the risk he'll be traded). Obviously like Lawrie but eh same thing as Bautista, I don't want his jersey. I'm a pitcher so I love pitchers, and want JJ but there's the wait of an extension.... and then there's Arencibia who I like (albeit gets a lot of hate here haha), and Reyes.

So tl;dr ---- JJ/Arencibia/Reyes?

IMO Reyes is the safe bet.
 
I'm picking up an Edwin one soon

I should've manned up and got one last offseason but I figured he would be gone at the end of the year. At least I got my Rios jersey in '04 so that lasted me like 5 years.
 
Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Polled 20 scouts and execs tonight, asked them to pick AL East winner if season started today: TOR-13, NYY-5, TB-1, BAL-1, BOS-0. @MLBONFOX
 
Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Polled 20 scouts and execs tonight, asked them to pick AL East winner if season started today: TOR-13, NYY-5, TB-1, BAL-1, BOS-0. @MLBONFOX

Dream job eh John? SUCK IT!
 
For some reason I'm drawing a blank. Who are their 4-5 starters (since they delt Shields). Moore, Hellickson and Price are 3 starters but not sure who the others are.

Rays also have a crazy bullpen.

From what I can see, it's Moore/Hellickson/Price as the top 3, Niemann as the likely #4 and Cobb/Archer/Odorizzi battling for 5-7. I think our top 3 is better than theirs, but I'd rather have any of the rest of them instead of Romero. I do hesitate saying I'd take any of them for Buehrle, though, just because Buehrle's so consistent that you know exactly what you're getting with him, while the rest are extremely inexperienced.

There's also the question of just how much of Tampa's success in pitching is the coaching staff, too. So while those guys might do well in Tampa, they might not do so well elsewhere.

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Polled 20 scouts and execs tonight, asked them to pick AL East winner if season started today: TOR-13, NYY-5, TB-1, BAL-1, BOS-0. @MLBONFOX

Really? More scouts think the Yankees will win the East than the Rays? :huh:
 
Just curious to the answers since they asked on The Score. If Jays are in game 7 of the WS, who do you want starting?

My pick is Johnson. Not sure I'd want a 80 mph pitcher pitching. Yes it's a knuckleball, a very good one but its sometimes risky.

You can say that any pitcher is at risk to just completely tank an outing at any given time. Even someone like Buehrle who has the workhorse/dependable tag attached to his career is going to have a clunker once and a while. When Brandon Morrow is on his game, he's every bit as dominating as just about any pitcher in baseball. So even though he's also potentially the most at-risk of anyone on the staff of falling apart (though Ricky might have something to say about that given how his 2012 went), he still might be the one guy that can give you the single best chance to win the game out of anyone. Or maybe it's Dickey, or Johnson. Or hell, even Romero or Buehrle.

That's why the only reasonable answer at this point in time is "I want the guy starting who's got the hottest hand at that point in the playoffs." It could be any one of the starters. If you had to answer now, the "safe" choice is probably Buehrle given his track record. But an equal case can be made that if you want the guy who has the best chance to go out and dominate, thus putting the least burden possible on the offence, it could be any of Morrow, Johnson, or Dickey.

I also don't know if I agree with the sentiment that the knuckler is any more or less risky on a game-to-game basis than any other pitcher's arsenal. Looking at his game log from last year, he only had one really big implosion (losing late in the year to Atlanta he gave up 8 runs on 8 hits in 4.1 innings. The Mets eventually lost 14-6). The rest of the time his losses were the kind of stat line you'd expect out of any decent pitcher in the situation. 5 or 6 innings, 8-10 hits, 4-6 runs. And of course there were games where the offence sucked and wasted a good outing, and ones where he didn't do well, but the offence picked him up and won the game in spite of a less-than-stellar performance on the mound.

Really, he was a model of consistency last year. He never walked more than 4 batters in a game. He gave up 10+ hits only 3 times (10 twice and 11 once. And the Mets won 2 of those games, FWIW.) Except for the Braves blowout, he was never charged with more than 5 runs against and never got less than 5 innings into the game (he did have a game vs the dodgers where he pitched just 1 inning, but it was in relief for some reason). And if you look at his 2010 and 2011 game logs, it's a similar scenario.

That seems to paint a picture that his knuckler doesn't just desert him and turn him into a glorified BP pitching machine at the drop of a hat. His bad outings weren't great by any means, but they weren't that bad. They certainly weren't even 2012 Ricky Romero bad, which is what you'd expect if he were prone to the occasional case of the knuckleball just vanishing from his arsenal for a game. You'd expect that he wouldn't make it past an inning or two, that he'd give up a ton of walks or that he would get absolutely crushed. But none of that happened any more than it would to a more traditionally equipped pitcher of his calibre.
 
Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Polled 20 scouts and execs tonight, asked them to pick AL East winner if season started today: TOR-13, NYY-5, TB-1, BAL-1, BOS-0. @MLBONFOX

Easily that's the scenario right now but the off season isn't over yet and AA got a lot done early. I don't see that changing much but we'll have to see how this all plays out.
 
Blue Jays signed Ortiz and Langerhans to minor league contracts.

Gotta provide links. Especially when there's multiple players named Ortiz and you didn't provide a position.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=411899

It's pitcher Ramon Ortiz.

Both of em are pretty much destined for Buffalo with the possibility of being emergency injury replacements. Ortiz was a pretty good mid-rotation guy once upon a time, but that's long past. At this point he's basically replacement level starter's innings (almost literally. His career WAR from 05 onward is -0.2, and he actually had 2 seasons of 0.0 WAR mixed in there) And Langerhans has a good glove, but lacks a major league calibre bat. He's pretty much a 6th OF for the Jays, 7th if the team is cool with Gose coming up if the injury he's replacing is long term.
 
Gotta provide links. Especially when there's multiple players named Ortiz and you didn't provide a position.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=411899

It's pitcher Ramon Ortiz.

Both of em are pretty much destined for Buffalo with the possibility of being emergency injury replacements. Ortiz was a pretty good mid-rotation guy once upon a time, but that's long past. At this point he's basically replacement level starter's innings (almost literally. His career WAR from 05 onward is -0.2, and he actually had 2 seasons of 0.0 WAR mixed in there) And Langerhans has a good glove, but lacks a major league calibre bat. He's pretty much a 6th OF for the Jays, 7th if the team is cool with Gose coming up if the injury he's replacing is long term.

Sorry i will from now on post full names and links.
 
I think every single starting position player and starting pitcher on the roster will be drafted in standard fantasy drafts. That's insane to think about, in my years of playing fantasy baseball, I have never seen that.
 
Yes, but it seemed like you were implying that he did when you said he was an "awful" example.

He was an awful example of someone who suddenly learned pitch recognition, because he'd always shown that he could have a pretty good approach at the plate.
 
I disagree. With the former, you'll never see the 80 without a 95 appearing. In the latter, there'll be the odd series where you'll see a 95 fastball, a 90 fastball and then an 80-85 knuckle. I don't like that, especially since Dickey throws an 85-90 (and sometimes as low as 80) fastball.
And with the former you will also have series where you have and 85, 90, 95.. like I said there really isn't much difference. You're just going the opposite way. But the real difference is the lefty righty split


I disagree with this wholly, especially when you've got two lefties that are as different as Buehrle and Romero and your two similar righties split up by a righty that throws a pitch no one else in the league throws. You also gotta consider that in a number of the games you're going to see the righty replaced by a lefty from the bullpen or vice versa. The angle a batter sees from a starter in one game is probably not going to throw them off much in the next.

The bullpen replaces don't mean much... they're isolated incidents to get out a batter or 2. The lefty righty split for your starters forces the other team to have different views from game to game, as well as separating the pitch speeds.
 
The National Sports near me is having a pretty big sale... looking for advice haha; the jerseys are on sale.

I really like Rasmus (but there's the risk he'll be traded). Obviously like Lawrie but eh same thing as Bautista, I don't want his jersey. I'm a pitcher so I love pitchers, and want JJ but there's the wait of an extension.... and then there's Arencibia who I like (albeit gets a lot of hate here haha), and Reyes.

So tl;dr ---- JJ/Arencibia/Reyes?

What's the sale? I'm buying at least 2 jerseys
 
And with the former you will also have series where you have and 85, 90, 95.. like I said there really isn't much difference. You're just going the opposite way. But the real difference is the lefty righty split




The bullpen replaces don't mean much... they're isolated incidents to get out a batter or 2. The lefty righty split for your starters forces the other team to have different views from game to game, as well as separating the pitch speeds.

Just to settle this whole rotation order thing... this is how Gibby views it: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/17/jays-only-problem-is-how-to-slot-their-starters-now

(He's the only one that matters :laugh:)

It’s tough at this time to piece it all together because I think we have five guys who all deserve to pitch on top,†Gibbons said. “So as of today, I can’t tell you an order.

“But with Dickey winning a Cy Young (last season with the Mets) you figure he’s got to lead the way.â€

So slot Dickey as the Jays No. 1.

The only other clue that Gibbons would reveal at this time was how he would slot the two left-handers in the rotation — Buehrle and Romero.

“You always want to split your lefties,†he said.

Gibbons sees it now as:

1. Dickey
2. Morrow/Johnson
3. Buehrle/Romero
4. Morrow/Johnson
5. Buehrle Romero
 
I can't believe how strongly held some people have opinions about the order of the rotation.

Does everybody realize that the club has zero control over who pitched against the opposition a full 1/3 of the season? Are we going to push back/up one of these five pitchers because one type of pitcher started for the Red Sox before the Yankees came to town? Are we going to push back Morrow because the Royals just faced Verlander?

Other than spreading out the lefties, it's not that important.
 
Thome_26, I agree with you 100%. It's just so fun to speculate because we've never had such a dynamic starting 5
 
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