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Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Madness the 12th: We don't know Dickey (about any extension. Yet)

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Guys, Tampa was never stacked 1-5, they were stacked 1-3 and just lost their workhorse pitcher and K machine in Shields. It puts a lot of pressure on the shoulder of a young Hellickson to be step in and be the #2 now and put up an extra 3-5 wins. They also lost Davis who was an important part of their pen and a guy that can be easily tossed into the rotation due to injury.

They have a lot of question marks. Moore looks very shaky as a #3, his stats last season we pretty brutal. Niemann is shaky as well as is coming off a bad injury last year and Cobb and Archer are unproven rookies.

The Rays took a big big hit trading Shields.
 
mapes said:
I do like San Fran's and forgot about them TBH but it depends on Lincecum. If he pitches like he did before they have a top end rotation. If he doesn't they're probably slightly behind us.
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I just rank them first solely on the fact that they're World Series champs.
 
Spezza19 said:
Guys, Tampa was never stacked 1-5, they were stacked 1-3 and just lost their workhorse pitcher and K machine in Shields. It puts a lot of pressure on the shoulder of a young Hellickson to be step in and be the #2 now and put up an extra 3-5 wins. They also lost Davis who was an important part of their pen and a guy that can be easily tossed into the rotation due to injury.

They have a lot of question marks. Moore looks very shaky as a #3, his stats last season we pretty brutal. Niemann is shaky as well as is coming off a bad injury last year and Cobb and Archer are unproven rookies.

The Rays took a big big hit trading Shields.
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He had a terrible first half. However, his second half was amazing. Young player with great stuff. He will do fine.
 
canucksfan said:
I would add Detriot. Verlander, Fister, Sanchez, Scherzer and Smyly is one of the best.
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True, but Jays is better in my opinion and here's why.

Verlander ------> Dickey
Johnson -------> Scherzer (can match him in K's, far better ERA and possibly more wins)
Morrow --------> Sanchez (Sanchez still puts up a very high ERA and has never been a big innings eater)
Buehrle-------> Fister (gimme the veteran workhorse and innings machine here)
Romero --------> Smyly (IF he bounces back and we get the old Romero, otherwise this could be equal)
 
Buddio said:
Lincecum is horrible, there's a reason why the Giants sat him all post season.
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They didn't sit him at all. Lincecum came out of the bullpen - and, I might add, looked just like his old self in doing so.
 
We can drag up countless other previous trades, good or bad, but it really doesn't matter. This potential decision can only be evaluated on the merits of that trade to the Jays in their particular circumstances.

The Jay's time is now, and now is no time for AA to let fear dictate decisions.

If TAD turns into Buster Posey four years from now, this trade could still make sense. Do I want him traded? Of course not. Does anybody think AA hasn't talked to the rest of the league about picking up a top of the line starter without giving up TAD? If it was out there, does anybody think he'd still be talking to the Mets? Does anybody think there is a GM out there with a top pitcher he's looking to trade for prospects that isn't aware AA has an impressive package available? You think they wouldn't contact AA?

The main consideration in this trade has to be what it could mean to the Jays, and not what TAD might turn into. Even, if nothing else, this trade makes the Jays more of a playoff contender and generates further excitement about the franchise, resulting in improved attendance -it is worth it.

Who here thinks that the Kent/Cone trade was a bad decision for the Jays? From a pure 'asset management' perspective, it was a disaster.
 
Spezza19 said:
Guys, Tampa was never stacked 1-5, they were stacked 1-3 and just lost their workhorse pitcher and K machine in Shields. It puts a lot of pressure on the shoulder of a young Hellickson to be step in and be the #2 now and put up an extra 3-5 wins. They also lost Davis who was an important part of their pen and a guy that can be easily tossed into the rotation due to injury.

They have a lot of question marks. Moore looks very shaky as a #3, his stats last season we pretty brutal. Niemann is shaky as well as is coming off a bad injury last year and Cobb and Archer are unproven rookies.

The Rays took a big big hit trading Shields.
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Take Moore's September out and his post all-star is beyond elite. He struggled against Boston and New York, but I fully expect him to have a breakout year next season.

Actually, just take out his two games versus New York in September. :laugh:
 
canucksfan said:
He had a terrible first half. However, his second half was amazing. Young player with great stuff. He will do fine.
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11-11 record, 3.81 ERA, 177.1 IP, 175 SO to 81 BB

I see that ERA staying around that mark, he could hit 200 IP would be pretty impressive, he's a k an inning guy which is also damn good, but the walks are way too high.

He will have his ups and down, and am really unsure if he's ready to be the #3 guy and be counted on for another 3-5 wins, same with Hellickson.

3 very young guys in the rotation next season, not much reliability past Price.
 
Eyedea said:
Take Moore's September out and his post all-star is beyond elite, freakish in fact. He struggled against Boston and New York, but I fully expect him to have a breakout year next season.

Actually, just take out his two games versus New York in September. :laugh:
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When you face Boston and New York so frequently, you can't just "take it out"

But yes, I see big things from him, but they're still not stacked 1-5 like we are.

Even if they go 1-3 with dominant stats, I'm not sold on Niemann, Archer and Cobb yet.
 
Spezza19 said:
11-11 record, 3.81 ERA, 177.1 IP, 175 SO to 81 BB

I see that ERA staying around that mark, he could hit 200 IP would be pretty impressive, he's a k an inning guy which is also damn good, but the walks are way too high.

He will have his ups and down, and am really unsure if he's ready to be the #3 guy and be counted on for another 3-5 wins, same with Hellickson.

3 very young guys in the rotation next season, not much reliability past Price.
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You're really drinking the kool aid right now.
 
As always there are "fans" who are coming out and trying to discredit Toronto. Trying to argue that there are other rotations that are better instead of being happy and excited for the upcoming season. We have a legit team here now.
 
I really dont like the trade from a value standpoint and understand that this will prolly look bad for us in the end but if we win a WS it will all not matter.

Regardless of this singular trade its quite amazing that in 3-4 short years AA has turned this team into a contender and possibly a team that has the best roster on paper in the entire league. I doubt even the biggest most pro AA supporters would have thought this possible in such a short time.
 
Spezza19 said:
How am I drinking the kool-aid?? They're going to have TWO rookies in their rotation next year. What are you talking about?

You actually think the Rays have a better rotation the the Jays?

Buddy, LOOK at the freaking stats.
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Agreed. This is a silly argument at this point, especially if Price pitches like he did in 2011.
 
Couple points:

The lack of respect for Mat Moore in this thread is absolutely hilarious. People are not even including him in the Rays top 3 :laugh:

Gio will not be a top 5 pitcher in the next 5-7 years. Tough time seeing him be better than: Kershaw, Price, Verlander, Strasburg, Hernandez, Hamels, Weaver, Cain -- to name a few off the top of my head.

Some of the hate against Grienke seemingly because of his contract is unwarranted. He's been a top 10 pitcher in baseball since 2008, where he broke out, and is absolutely better than Josh Johnson.

Lastly, Baumgartner is certainly worth the hype. He has proved a lot. I won't even bother arguing this point, but I have no problem doing so, if anyone questions it.

EDIT:

Holy ....

I could add so much more to this list.
 
Epictetus said:
Couple points:

The lack of respect for Mat Moore in this thread is absolutely hilarious. People are not even including him in the Rays top 3 :laugh:

Gio will not be a top 5 pitcher in the next 5-7 years. Tough time seeing him be better than: Kershaw, Price, Verlander, Strasburg, Hernandez, Hamels, Weaver, Cain -- to name a few off the top of my head.

Some of the hate against Grienke seemingly because of his contract is unwarranted. He's been a top 10 pitcher in baseball since 2008, where he broke out, and is absolutely better than Josh Johnson.

Lastly, Baumgartner is certainly worth the hype. He has proved a lot. I won't even bother arguing this point, but I have no problem doing so, if anyone questions it.
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tumblr_lkyhcb79cn1qa13jj.jpg
 
Oh well!

I'm excited about how our rotation looks now but not crazy about what we gave up. I'm more disturbed about Syndergaard going than D'Arnaud.

I love what AA is doing overall though.

We have a top 10 pick this draft and it is supposedly a 'strong' overall draft and that will net us another top 50-100 type prospect most likely.
 
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Spezza19 said:
How am I drinking the kool-aid?? They're going to have TWO rookies in their rotation next year. What are you talking about?

You actually think the Rays have a better rotation the the Jays?

Buddy, LOOK at the freaking stats.
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When you put the Angels rotation ahead of the Tigers when the Angels lost Grienke, Haren and Santana and replaced them with Hanson(being kept together with a ball of string), Blanton. That doesn't really cut it with anybody. I want to see how Johnson does pitching in the AL before annointing him a stud for the Jays and the Jays still need to sign Dickey for this deal to happen.
 
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