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Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Edition III: Spring Training Madness (Spring Training is over. Season starts on Thursday, Mar 30)

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With Gavin Lux down long term wonder if the Dodgers/Jays would swing a deal. Espinal for Stone? Already have Merrifield/Biggio at 2B, Lopez/Barger as depth for both SS/2B with Orelvis and Leo Jimenez not too far away.
 
Eyedea said:
I really like the addition but most of those guys were already established/ready for the bigs. If you’re going to use Alvarez/Tucker as Crick additions then you might as well stretch back to 2018 for the Jays and include Vlad, Gurriel, Bo, Jansen, Biggio, Tellez, McGuire, and Berti. Plus Teo breaking out. And now the Jays are seeing their new wave starting to breakthrough.
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Comparable, yes, but that is something Atkins built over 4 years at the time. In year 1, Click came in during a tumultuous time with roster influx and high expectations. New GM, new manager, new farm director, new scouting director etc, and star players out the door.

He followed that up with;
2020: Crappy season but lost in 7 in the ALCS
2021: Division win but lost in the WS
2022: Division win and won the WS

So to do that in 3 years with playoff results to Atkins' 7-8 body of record is no comparison to me.

I'm not saying Atkins is a bad GM, i actually think he has done a good to very good job in most areas. I just think Click is better and its not often a GM of his caliber becomes available and agrees to join your org.

My criteria for evaluating a GM is 2 fold; playoff success and player development/management. Jays have done an excellent job at player development/management but it hasnt resulted in playoff success. Whereas Click has an abundance of both.
 
phillipmike said:
Comparable, yes, but that is something Atkins built over 4 years at the time. In year 1, Click came in during a tumultuous time with roster influx and high expectations. New GM, new manager, new farm director, new scouting director etc, and star players out the door.

He followed that up with;
2020: Crappy season but lost in 7 in the ALCS
2021: Division win but lost in the WS
2022: Division win and won the WS

So to do that in 3 years with playoff results to Atkins' 7-8 body of record is no comparison to me.

I'm not saying Atkins is a bad GM, i actually think he has done a good to very good job in most areas. I just think Click is better and its not often a GM of his caliber becomes available and agrees to join your org.

My criteria for evaluating a GM is 2 fold; playoff success and player development/management. Jays have done an excellent job at player development/management but it hasnt resulted in playoff success. Whereas Click has an abundance of both.
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Roster influx was supplemented by already developed in-house additions though. The entire point was that Click didn't need to rebuild since he was already reaping the rewards of the former management, whereas Atkins had an org that was on the downswing which resulted with him going through the rebuild process. You can't compare either's first three years because both organizations were at different states of condition. Jays may have made the postseason the last 2/3 years but they're just starting to enter that upper echelon. The Astros are still a great club but they may have just hit their peak and will likely start to feel some resistance from the Mariners and Rangers.
 
Eyedea said:
Roster influx was supplemented by already developed in-house additions though. The entire point was that Click didn't need to rebuild since he was already reaping the rewards of the former management, whereas Atkins had an org that was on the downswing which resulted with him going through the rebuild process. You can't compare either's first three years because both organizations were at different states of condition. Jays may have made the postseason the last 2/3 years but they're just starting to enter that upper echelon. The Astros are still a great club but they may have just hit their peak and will likely start to feel some resistance from the Mariners and Rangers.
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The players were there but werent developed into fully contributing major league players yet. It involved development from Click's staff who was put together on the fly.

He reaped the rewards but it wasnt easy by any means. Lost the best pitcher in baseball in Cole in year one, then lost his closer in 2020, then lost Springer, then lost Verlander for the year, then lost Correa and Grienke. To do this and get progressively better year to year in both the regular season and playoffs is remarkable which also includes 2 WS appearances and win.

Went from a winning percentage of 48.3% to 58.6% to 65.4% then playoffs of ALCS loss, WS loss and then WS win.

Atkins similarly reaped the rewards of Vladdy, Jansen, Tellez, Romano etc. I dont hold it against Atkins, rather a credit him for overseeing the development of all those players as they took off once he joined the org.

I'm not comparing the first 3 years of the org. Im comparing Atkins' 7 to Click's 3 where Atkins had 4 years to build a stable org. Click's footing was on shifting sands losing 5 star players (3 who were superstars) in that time and still managed to get to the top of his sport.
 
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phillipmike said:
The players were there but werent developed into fully contributing major league players yet. It involved development from Click's staff who was put together on the fly.

He reaped the rewards but it wasnt easy by any means. Lost the best pitcher in baseball in Cole in year one, then lost his closer in 2020, then lost Springer, then lost Verlander for the year, then lost Correa and Grienke. To do this and get progressively better year to year in both the regular season and playoffs is remarkable which also includes 2 WS appearances and win.

Went from a winning percentage of 48.3% to 58.6% to 65.4% then playoffs of ALCS loss, WS loss and then WS win.

Atkins similarly reaped the rewards of Vladdy, Jansen, Tellez, Romano etc. I dont hold it against Atkins, rather a credit him for overseeing the development of all those players as they took off once he joined the org.

I'm not comparing the first 3 years of the org. Im comparing Atkins' 7 to Click's 3 where Atkins had 4 years to build a stable org. Click's footing was on shifting sands losing 5 star players (3 who were superstars) in that time and still managed to get to the top of his sport.
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Agree to disagree then because most of those guys were fully developed. In 2019 Yordan won ROTY, Tucker went 30/30 in AAA and was starting for them down the stretch, Javier climbed from A+ to AAA in 2019, Valdez dominated AAA and was a swingman, Urquidy was dominating in the 2019 postseason and even started a WS game. Luis Garcia going from A+ to MLB in 2020, okay, that may have been a shrewd move, and Pena as well with him skipping AA to AAA after the lost 2020 season and wrist surgery. Vlad, Jansen, Tellez, Romano were all rookie/A ballers by the time Shapiro and Atkins came aboard. I'm not holding the fact that these players were there before Click against him. I'm just highlighting that a majority of these guys were already MLBers and wouldn't have seen major developmental shifts/changes in their programs.
 
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No, Buck. his job is not to win the game. A pitcher, by definition, CANNOT win the game on his own.

His job is to prevent runs to give his team the chance to win the game. Or, if you want to look at it the other way his job is to not lose the game.

"His job is to win the game" is the reason people still put stock in pitcher wins as an evaluative statistic.
 
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The Nemesis said:
No, Buck. his job is not to win the game. A pitcher, by definition, CANNOT win the game on his own.

His job is to prevent runs to give his team the chance to win the game. Or, if you want to look at it the other way his job is to not lose the game.

"His job is to win the game" is the reason people still put stock in pitcher wins as an evaluative statistic.
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it's baffling that deGrom didn't leave this debate dead and buried.
 
Bassitt gives up a run and a bunch of contact. Swanson allows 2 baserunners with no outs.

All the acquisitions are failures. Might as well sell off and tank this season. :sarcasm:
 
I was just reading Fangraphs' piece about pitch clocks and how a lot of the issues right now will work themselves out as everyone gets used to them.

blogs.fangraphs.com

When It Comes to the Pitch Clock, Players and Fans Will Adjust Quickly

As players get used to the new rule, the importance of the pitch timer will diminish in the minds of fans.
blogs.fangraphs.com blogs.fangraphs.com

The comments section for that is hilarious. The number of people going full blown "get off my lawn" about the game being shortened up when game length inflation is only about 20-25 years old and is almost entirely tied to all the dicking around by players between pitches and not increased advertising or the game being "artificially" slowed down is hilarious. All these people want to make this about kids these days with their tiktoks and their fortnites can't sit down and focus for more than 15 minutes at a time but the lethargic, glacial pace of games is a relatively new invention and this is more akin to how baseball used to be, just that it has to be regimented because if not you'd have players like Jose Ramirez whinging about how they want to slow down and listen to their walk-up music.
 
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