Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[phillipmike]

I might need those tissues again. That’s 40+ HRs and I forgot about no shift.

We went from needed left handed OFs to having an abundance and needing a right handed hitting OF.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Now that i've had a second to gather my thoughts, i love this deal.

as aub said there's a lot here that will generate a ton of backlash if you look at the deal just from the surface but i think it makes sense;

This deal shows how clueless people were about Kirk. The general reaction on reddit was "WTF THEY TRADED THEIR TOP CATCHING PROSPECT?!?!?" without apparently realizing the guy they currently have in that spot was a bonafide all-star and his metrics show he isn't just good at the hitting part of being a catcher. Kirk's breakout made Moreno expendable. The age gap being so small also means you can easily envision a future with Kirk being the guy behind the plate for the next decade just like people did for Moreno. This also says Jansen didn't have nearly as much value as people thought.

Gurriel will be missed for his lovable personality probably both by the room and the fans, but he's really not all that good. Trash can level defender in the outfield with a slightly above average bat. (no power though) And this is coming from somone who loved Lourdes and his goofy ass pine tree looking hair.

As also mentioned, people are also severely underestimating how good Varsho actually is. The guy graded as the best defensive outfielder in baseball in 2022 while patrolling a bit of a pain in the ass in Chase Field.

The bat is a bit boom or bust, but people said and then proceeded to bitch about the same shit with Matt Chapman. That ended up turning out pretty good in the end.

 

[Kurtz]

Listening to Blake Murphy right now break down the trade on Fan590. Says a baseball prospectus guy contacted him and said that Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball.

...which is great, but also makes me wonder the point of KK now.

 

[Woodman19]

We will no longer beat ourselves. This team is going to win 100 games health permitting.

Listening to Blake Murphy right now break down the trade on Fan590. Says a baseball prospectus guy contacted him and said that Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball.

...which is great, but also makes me wonder the point of KK now.

vs. RHP
LF/Springer
CF/Kiermair
RF/Varsho

vs. LHP
LF/Merrifield
CF/Varsho
RF/Springer

 

[canucksfan]

 

[djdev]

I might need those tissues again. That’s 40+ HRs and I forgot about no shift.

We went from needed left handed OFs to having an abundance and needing a right handed hitting OF.

ye due to this crazy shift stuff im pretty sure he had one of the worst BABIP in the majors, i think hes gonna rake this year personally.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Listening to Blake Murphy right now break down the trade on Fan590. Says a baseball prospectus guy contacted him and said that Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball.

...which is great, but also makes me wonder the point of KK now.

To take the thing that cost us a playoff series and was a massive weakness and flip it around into one of our biggest strengths.

 

[Kurtz]

We will no longer beat ourselves. This team is going to win 100 games health permitting.


vs. RHP
LF/Springer
CF/Kiermair
RF/Varsho

vs. LHP
LF/Merrifield
CF/Varsho
RF/Springer

But that means Varsho is in the starting lineup what, a third of the time?

 

[Woodman19]

But that means Varsho is in the starting lineup what, a third of the time?

No, he would CF against LHP, RF against RHP

 

[Optimist]

Well the Jays no longer have the best hair in the majors. Gurriel was a big part of that.

 

[Thornbury]

Shatkins did not trade Moreno AND Gurriel for this Varsho guy did they?

At least this means we won't be moving Tiedemann for Reynolds, that would have been a disaster.

 

[Blitzkrug]

But that means Varsho is in the starting lineup what, a third of the time?

Varsho is a full time starter.

Kiermaier is likely the guy that does spot duty

 

[TheBeastCoast]

But that means Varsho is in the starting lineup what, a third of the time?

How do you gather that from that post?

 

[Blitzkrug]

Shatkins did not trade Moreno AND Gurriel for this Varsho guy did they?

Where do you propose the Jays play Moreno when his spot is blocked long term then?

People value prospects too much.

 

[Kurtz]

To take the thing that cost us a playoff series and was a massive weakness and flip it around into one of our biggest strengths.

If we presumably have the two best defensive CF in baseball, then putting one of them in the corner severely diminishes his value. There's little point to starting KK in the corner at all - marginal defensive surplus from that spot and a bad bat.

No, he would CF against LHP, RF against RHP

My bad, I didn't notice that you have Varsho in the corner against RF. I still don't see the point of your configuration though tbh. If Varsho is the best defensive CF in baseball he should be playing CF every day.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

We will no longer beat ourselves. This team is going to win 100 games health permitting.


vs. RHP
LF/Springer
CF/Kiermair
RF/Varsho

vs. LHP
LF/Merrifield
CF/Varsho
RF/Springer

Isn't Varsho bad against LHP though? I guess you can just stick him at the bottom of the lineup and hope for the best. It is not like the Jays are short on RHP who can hit lefties and the Jays could still add another RH OFer in addition to having Merrifield there.

 

[Woodman19]

Its likely going to be a rotating outfield now that we have 2.5 capable CF lol, it makes finding platoon partners with corner outfield spots so much easier now.

 

[djdev]

Where do you propose the Jays play Moreno when his spot is blocked long term then?

People value prospects too much.

on top of that atkins has made some great trades, hte team has been very good about correctly(so far)indentifying prospects and trading them for top talent. noting to complain about here.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Its likely going to be a rotating outfield now that we have 2.5 capable CF lol, it makes finding platoon partners with corner outfield spots so much easier now.

Can't Merrifield also play CF?

 

[MAB1]

Glad they kept Tiedemann.

If we presumably have the two best defensive CF in baseball, then putting one of them in the corner severely diminishes his value. There's little point to starting KK in the corner at all - marginal defensive surplus from that spot and a bad bat.





My bad, I didn't notice that you have Varsho in the corner against RF. I still don't see the point of your configuration though tbh.

KK wouldn't be at a corner though.

Against RHP he's the CF, Varsho is LF/RF and Springer takes the other spot.

Against LHP, Varsho is CF, Merrifield is LF and Springer is RF

Defensively, when Varsho isn't playing CF it makes the most sense for the Jays to deploy him in RF to maximize his defensive value but I'm not sure how much LF Springer has played.

 

[Woodman19]

It really came down to, do you trade Tiedemann in a package for Reynolds or do you trade Moreno in a trade for Varsho? We have surplus depth at C to trade from with Moreno and Varsho is a better fit for the run prevention we are aiming for.

 

[Leafin]

It really came down to, do you trade Tiedemann in a package for Reynolds or do you trade Moreno in a trade for Varsho? We have surplus depth at C to trade from with Moreno and Varsho is a better fit for the run prevention we are aiming for.

Now we should go all in and do both.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Kinda hilarious this thread went from "this outfield is trash and needs an upgrade" to "holy shit we literally have too many plus defenders where do we put them all?"

Kinda wild. Have to imagine Varsho is the full time CF and then Kiermaier is spot duty/in for Springer when he needs an off day.

 

[Woodman19]

Kinda hilarious this thread went from "this outfield is trash and needs an upgrade" to "holy shit we literally have too many plus defenders where do we put them all?"

Kinda wild. Have to imagine Varsho is the full time CF and then Kiermaier is spot duty/in for Springer when he needs an off day.

History tells us that Kiermaier is going to make sure Varsho gets a lot of time playing in CF lol

 

[Kurtz]

Glad they kept Tiedemann.

KK wouldn't be at a corner though.

Against RHP he's the CF, Varsho is LF/RF and Springer takes the other spot.

Against LHP, Varsho is CF, Merrifield is LF and Springer is RF

Defensively, when Varsho isn't playing CF it makes the most sense for the Jays to deploy him in RF to maximize his defensive value but I'm not sure how much LF Springer has played.

I see the logic in that, it's just according to the BP guy, Varsho is the better CF defender, so putting him in the corner two thirds of the time diminishes his value.