Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition 5.0 - The Winter Meeting Chronicles

[Erndog]

the smoak deal was literally throwing money out the window.

Yeah, I remember how baffled I was when I heard that. Did one of those double takes. Couldnt wrap my head around it.

 

[theaub]

The Smoak deal is only an issue if management is seriously using it as a reason to not go after guys, which I don't think is the case at all.

 

[Neil Hamburger]

The Smoak deal is only an issue if management is seriously using it as a reason to not go after guys, which I don't think is the case at all.

Add (some of) that dead money to the Fowler offer, and maybe he's a Blue Jay.

Obviously they aren't going to come out and say that contract is the reason they miss out on guys, because it would highlight how stupid the contract was.

 

[DaveMatthew]

EE's agent misjudged the market, not Atkins/Shapiro.

Both sides did.

Shapiro/Atkins could have waited things out if they were confident that their 4/80 offer was what the market would ultimately bear for EE, and it's a reasonable assumption based on what we know now, that if that offer was still on the table and we didn't have 3 1B/DH players on the roster (Morales, Smoak, Pearce), EE would be back here.

He's a better, more proven and more flexible player who would be a better fit on this team moving forward.

 

[phillipmike]

I COMPLETELY disagree with those of you saying that the front office jumped the gun with morales.

Morales is a fine replacement for either/both of EE/JB and if he would have slipped out of their grasp this forum would be going NUTS that we have done absolutely **** all to improve the team.

I think the FO had to have known that they were not bringing back both of EE/JB and targeted morales right from the get go as a quality player available at a reasonable rate and moved quickly to lock him up.

Morales is definitely not holding them back from signing EE or JB if they want too, if anything it gives them more leverage in negotiations because they already have a replacement player ready.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see both EE/JB come back. EE on a good deal around whats being proposed (4x20ish), and JB on a 1 year deal.

Agreed. EE force their hand once he rejected 80M/4 so they got a switch hitter with power who can hit with RISP at 11M per year. Pretty good deal if you ask me. Morales isnt replacing EE, his bat is easily replacing Saunders or 2016 Bautista and he could get much better hitting at the Rogers Centre.

 

[Leaftors]

Add (some of) that dead money to the Fowler offer, and maybe he's a Blue Jay.

Obviously they aren't going to come out and say that contract is the reason they miss out on guys, because it would highlight how stupid the contract was.

I still think the CF position guarantee needs to be a bigger consideration to the conversation. We cant give that to him, but the cards can.

 

[one77]

I still think one of EE/JB will be back. Morales was signed early to replace one of them, for a cheaper price. It's a fine signing but only if one of EE/JB are also signed IMO.

Travis 2B
Donaldson 3B
Encarnacion 1B/DH
Morales DH/1B
Tulowitzki SS
Pearce RF
Martin C
Upton/Pompey LF
Pillar CF

Upton/Pompey, Smoak, Barney, Iannetta/Jimenez

Not bad. Morales replaces JB, Pearce replaces Saunders. Just need a good pen arm or two

 

[trellaine201]

There was a quote a week ago by management on "getting younger" lol that really hasn't happened yet. Jays were apparently the oldest team last year.

 

[Amadeus]

Thoughts on possibly inquiring on J.D Martinez and Ben Revere to wrap up the offseason?

Revere
Travis
Donaldson
Morales
Tulo
Martinez
Martin
Saunders
Pillar

That's a pretty well rounded lineup if you ask me. Good mix up of lefties and righties. That should leave some money to get a couple of nice bullpen pieces too.

 

[Starry Knight]

Please stop putting Revere at leadoff.

It hurts my brain.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

There was a quote a week ago by management on "getting younger" lol that really hasn't happened yet. Jays were apparently the oldest team last year.

If Pompey, Ramirez, Smith Jr, Rowdy, and Lourdes all see time...which I venture to bet each one will to varying degrees, they most certainly will have gotten younger. Not sure how you people think getting younger works? Signing 31 year olds, I imagine.

 

[Discoverer]

This is one of my biggest fears with this FO - they don't realize how hard it usually is to get free agents to come here.

For a long while toronto simply wasn't a consideration for top free agents, aside from a Cano-to-SEA overpay.

Now they actually have top free agents giving them the time of day and willing to sign for market par or less and they're not understanding that that won't last.

So would you have pushed the deal to $92.5 million if you needed to?

 

[oilers89]

I don't think signing a 30 year old relief pitcher to bat 4th is a good idea


In seriousness, I am down for Melky, but I don't think Shapiro and Atkins want to trade for two outfielders, so I think we'd have to go sign Revere or work with Upton/Carrera/Pompey to replace Cain in that lineup

haha ya, I had just put morales then decided to put his first name and that was all that came too me haha. It was early

 

[Kurtz]

Pompey is currently on par or better than Revere, and obviously has the greater upside. I hope we're not considering Revere.

 

[zeke]

EE's agent misjudged the market, not Atkins/Shapiro.

how they treated EE last offseason can't be left out, though.

they decided to go with an "All Business, No relationship" approach from the start with EE and Jose, so can't be blameless for them returning that favor now.

 

[zeke]

So would you have pushed the deal to $92.5 million if you needed to?

what's the difference? Smoak?

 

[zeke]

If Pompey, Ramirez, Smith Jr, Rowdy, and Lourdes all see time...which I venture to bet each one will to varying degrees, they most certainly will have gotten younger. Not sure how you people think getting younger works? Signing 31 year olds, I imagine.

but aren't they removing time for the kids by signing a bunch of old vets for depth roles, instead of just signing a couple expensive vets for the top of the lineup and leaving room for the kids in depth roles?

 

[Leaftors]

but aren't they removing time for the kids by signing a bunch of old vets for depth roles, instead of just signing a couple expensive vets for the top of the lineup and leaving room for the kids in depth roles?

or they're signing depth role vets so that the kids have an unrestricted shot at the top of the lineup?


theres always a flip side to most arguments

 

[Jozay]

it sucks when you cant get plan A and all the plan B's are so much more worse.

I blame the rockies for taking Desmond off the table Lol

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

how they treated EE last offseason can't be left out, though.

they decided to go with an "All Business, No relationship" approach from the start with EE and Jose, so can't be blameless for them returning that favor now.

IMO Edwin and Kinzer initiated this approach when he told management that if he wasn't signed by the start of the year, they weren't going to negotiate. I understand that in-season negs can be a distraction, but I think setting a deadline like that is playing hard ball too. That's not a buddy-buddy relationship between the parties.

Such a shame, it really seems like Edwin wants to stay. I hope they get something done.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Longshot]

Is the following scenario really unrealistic:

Dump Smoak on somebody, you probably have to eat some money, but oh well. Some rebuilding team out there will be willing to take a flyer on him in case he is a late bloomer.

Sign EE. Unless his market goes crazy now that Fowler is off the table, the Jays should have the money to bring him back. If they had $15 million-something for Fowler, surely they have cash for EE.

EE could play first. Morales at DH and Pearce could man an OF spot and fill in at other spots where needed. In his career Pearce has been a platoon guy. Most plate appearances he has ever had in a year is 383.

It's not the ideal situation, but it's workable.

1B: EE
2B: Travis
3B: Donaldson
SS: Tulo
C: Martin
CF: Pillar
RF: Pearce
LF: Upton
DH: Morales

Obviously there is work to do in the OF, but it's the Jays could take a look at Pompey, they still have Carerra and possible a lower end OF free agent. With Smoak off the roster it would open the flexibility to carry an extra OF.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

but aren't they removing time for the kids by signing a bunch of old vets for depth roles, instead of just signing a couple expensive vets for the top of the lineup and leaving room for the kids in depth roles?

That's exactly what they've done...

- Martin $20MM
- Tulo $20MM
- Donaldson $17MM
- Estrada $14.5MM
- Liriano $13.6MM
- Happ $13.0MM

- Kids in "depth roles" (whatever that loaded statement means): Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Biagini, Pillar, Travis, Pompey, and the younger kids on the 40-man who could potentially see time that I mentioned prior.

 

[Longshot]

There was a quote a week ago by management on "getting younger" lol that really hasn't happened yet. Jays were apparently the oldest team last year.

Do you have a link to this quote? I don't remember them saying that. I do remember some media members speculating they "need" to get younger - as if "younger" translates into "better."

Management has been pretty clear it believes the team still has a chance to contend for a World Series and filling holes in the lineup has been the focus of the winter. You don't make significant financial offers to 30+ year old players like Bautista (QO), EE (QO, 4 years, $80 million), Morales (signed), Pearce (signed) and Fowler (took St Louis offer) if you're following a plan to get younger. They also brought back Grilli, who is 39 and automatically skews the numbers.

I suppose in an abstract kind of way they are getting younger. Liriano replacing Dickey makes them younger. If Bautista leaves, his replacement is unlikely to be 36.

 

[Walshy7]

the smoak deal was literally throwing money out the window.

its not literally throwing money out the window. But it is almost literally blowing smoak up the fan base's *****