NYR Top 10 Centers of All-Time (Preliminary Top 20 List Due!)

[GarretJoseph*]

We originally decided to open the door to any player who played center for at least 75% of a minimum 4 seasons. Exceptions were made for Gretzky and Nilsson. Gretzky played three very-high level seasons for the Rangers. Nilsson played 3+ before his career was cut down by injuries.

I'd be happy to add Lindros and Nicholls to the list if you think they deserve consideration. I certainly don't want to preclude someone from arguing in favor of a player before the voting rounds begin. If the consensus is that a player with 2 very strong seasons is more worthy of being on a franchise's all-time list than a player with 5 or 6 above average seasons, then so be it. That's what the voting process is for. What are other people's thoughts on this?

If it's open to any player who played for the rangers for any amount of time it might upset some folks when the RW position comes up as I would put Pavel Bure in the top 10, I saw him live when we traded for him at the deadline and he was awesome, 12 goals / 20 points in 12 games. The following season before he got injured he had 19 goals in 39 games, not amazing, but solid. Total of 50 points in 51 games for the Rangers. Not shabby.

 

[mike14]

I've got no probs if people want to include the likes of Lindros and Nicholls. I'd actually quite like to read the justifications for them when we get to that stage.

 

[Crease]

I've got no probs if people want to include the likes of Lindros and Nicholls. I'd actually quite like to read the justifications for them when we get to that stage.

I agree. I think the debate of peak vs career value is one of the more interesting debates that emerge during these things. I'll add Lindros and Nicholls to the eligible list.

 

[NYR Sting]

I fail to see how any real argument could be made for Lindros. Nedved has more claim to a spot than Lindros does.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I fail to see how any real argument could be made for Lindros. Nedved has more claim to a spot than Lindros does.

Or even Nemchinov.

 

[NCRanger]

Both Rogers and Pavelich aren't getting enough respect here. I watched both play.
Similar in many ways. Both very good on their skates, creative hockey players who would absolutely thrive in todays NHL. Similar size wise both around 5'9". Played together for a couple of seasons - however at this point Mike was finishing up his career.

Pavelich was the better playmaker while Rogers was a better finisher. If I remember correctly Pavelich was never drafted and after the Olympics actually spent a season or two in Europe. He was brought over by Herb Brooks and instantly became a fan favorite. Brooks teams played a puck control, skating game and Pavelich was a natural for that. For 4 seasons Mark put up some very nice stats and was one of the better centerman in the league. After Brooks left and Sator took over he basically drove Pavelich out of the league. Too bad because Pavelich had the talent to be a 10 year guy in the NHL.

Rogers, on the other hand, is one of those guys who spent many seasons in the WHA (almost 10 seasons or something like that) before it merged with the NHL. He was on the Whalers and was actually a pretty big scorer for them - he had a couple 50 goal seasons if I recall correctly. By the time he got to the Rangers he was in his 30's and winding down his career. His first season he was great, after that he kinda wound down.

Both of these guys deserve consideration in the 7-10 slot. Better then Nedved, Nemchinov or some of the other guys mentioned here previously.

Obviously the top 4 spots gotta be Ratelle, Mess, Boucher and Tkachuk.

Also, don't forget Espo. I know alot of people hate that trade (and they should, it was horrible). However, Espo did have 3 or 4 very good seasons for the Rangers. Given the fact that Boyle is on the list Espo, during his time as a Ranger, was about 100 times better!

I met someone this past summer who knows Mark Pavelich. I was a delegate to the Republican Convention, and the North Carolina delegation was assigned the same hotel as the Minnesota delegation. Ended up someone from the Minn. delegation had her daughter there who was friends with Pavelich's niece. He's not a recluse as was reported because he didn't participate in the 2002 reunion of the 1980 Olympic team. He just doesn't want anything to do with hockey any more.

Oh, and every time I look at this list, I get a headache.

 

[Sturminator]

Please keep in mind that I say this as an old-time Rangers fan (my favorite player of all-time is Brad Park), but it is a real shame what a poor job the Rangers franchise has done over the years of honoring its greatest players. The fact that Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, Frank Boucher and Bryan Hextall (at a minimum) don't have their numbers retired is simply a travesty. This franchise has a very rich tradition, but unlike Toronto or Montreal, does nothing to celebrate it. It is disheartening to see modern fans who would rate Ron Dugay over Frank Boucher.

I hope that the crimes of the franchise are not repeated in the process of making this list.

 

[bernmeister]

Please keep in mind that I say this as an old-time Rangers fan (my favorite player of all-time is Brad Park), but it is a real shame what a poor job the Rangers franchise has done over the years of honoring its greatest players. The fact that Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, Frank Boucher and Bryan Hextall (at a minimum) don't have their numbers retired is simply a travesty. This franchise has a very rich tradition, but unlike Toronto or Montreal, does nothing to celebrate it. It is disheartening to see modern fans who would rate Ron Dugay over Frank Boucher.

I hope that the crimes of the franchise are not repeated in the process of making this list.

Well said, though Dugay was pretty good.
GRESCHNER was overrated. Good, but overrated.

Edit. They are getting better at it, lately.
But yeah, Park should be up there with Leetch, for sure.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

Well said, though Dugay was pretty good.
GRESCHNER was overrated. Good, but overrated.

Edit. They are getting better at it, lately.
But yeah, Park should be up there with Leetch, for sure.

Park, Ratelle and Cooke for sure. The whole process of retiring #'s here makes about as much sense as the management of the team has since I'm a kid!. Lousy to say the least!

 

[Drewbackatu*]

Please keep in mind that I say this as an old-time Rangers fan (my favorite player of all-time is Brad Park), but it is a real shame what a poor job the Rangers franchise has done over the years of honoring its greatest players. The fact that Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, Frank Boucher and Bryan Hextall (at a minimum) don't have their numbers retired is simply a travesty. This franchise has a very rich tradition, but unlike Toronto or Montreal, does nothing to celebrate it. It is disheartening to see modern fans who would rate Ron Dugay over Frank Boucher.

I hope that the crimes of the franchise are not repeated in the process of making this list.

Great post! The Rangers organization can't even get retiring #'s right; Messier before Boucher, Hextall, Cook, Johnson, Howell and Bathgate tells you all you need to know about how clueless this organization has been and Park was a much better defenseman than Leetch was.

 

[bernmeister]

Thanks to Crease et al for such a great thread.
In case I am engulfed by the real world, my preliminary opinion is

1. Frank Boucher before my time going on rep, strong statistical case but it is close
2. Jean Ratelle magnificence on skates!
3. Walt Tkaczuk for reasons noted by posters. very underrated. one of my faves, outstanding.
4. Mark Messier captain earned it
5 Don Raleigh before my time going on rep
6 Earl Ingarfield before my time going on rep
7 Clint Smith before my time going on rep
8 Ron Duguay all around skilled player, productive
9 Ulf Nilsson all around skilled player, productive, adjust for injury
10 Phil Esposito toughest to place

Espo hugely overrated, semi-one dimensional, got lots of Gs thanks to talented players like Orr and Bucyk. Not as singular a talent when early on in Chicago. Still, he put in enough time and results w/Rangers can't leave him off the list.

Kelly Kisio was a hustling productive C, as, to lesser degree was Ridley. Rogers and others had a couple of great years, that's about it.

Obviously, given this is strictly as to performance as a Ranger and not overall contributions to hockey, the great Gretz was left off the list.

look forward to the follow up of this down the road

 

[bernmeister]

Great post! The Rangers organization can't even get retiring #'s right; Messier before Boucher, Hextall, Cook, Johnson, Howell and Bathgate tells you all you need to know about how clueless this organization has been and Park was a much better defenseman than Leetch was.

Wouldn't go quite this far. It is very close, taking into account all intangibles, etc.

Let's put it this way:
Leetch was Bobby Orr lite.

Park was still terrific at most of what Orr offered but did so to smaller degree, and excelled at everything else better than Orr.

 

[Crease]

Great post! The Rangers organization can't even get retiring #'s right; Messier before Boucher, Hextall, Cook, Johnson, Howell and Bathgate tells you all you need to know about how clueless this organization has been and Park was a much better defenseman than Leetch was.

Not to take the thread off-topic but if Bobby Orr wasn't Bobby Orr, Park would have had a handful of Norrises and would have been remembered as the best defenseman of the 70s, half of which he spent in New York. Park vs Leetch will be an interested debate when we do the Top 10 Defenseman project.

Anyway, preliminary top 20 lists are due May 9th. Still plenty of time to get started on research if you haven't already. If you want to participate in the voting round for 1-10, PM your list.

 

[Drewbackatu*]

Wouldn't go quite this far. It is very close, taking into account all intangibles, etc.

Let's put it this way:
Leetch was Bobby Orr lite.

Park was still terrific at most of what Orr offered but did so to smaller degree, and excelled at everything else better than Orr.

I respectfully disagree. Just curious; are you old enough to have witnessed Orr's entire run as a player? He is hands down the greatest player(not just defenseman) to ever play the game of hockey; he could do things on both sides of the puck that other players could only dream about and that includes Gretzky(#3 all-time) and Lemieux(#4 all-time). Btw, Howe would be #2 all-time in my book!
Sorry to go off topic

 

[Gresch04]

I respectfully disagree. Just curious; are you old enough to have witnessed Orr's entire run as a player? He is hands down the greatest player(not just defenseman) to ever play the game of hockey; he could do things on both sides of the puck that other players could only dream about and that includes Gretzky(#3 all-time) and Lemieux(#4 all-time). Btw, Howe would be #2 all-time in my book!
Sorry to go off topic

Whenever I read "hands down" I always know it's debatable.

While I never saw Orr, I get the mystique and the brilliance of his game - especially being a defensemen. But, Gretz exceeds the next best player, statistically, by the largest margin of any other sport. He has more assists than Messier has total points. No one is "hands down" better than Gretz. Is Orr/Gretz a great debate? Sure. It's just silly to state "hands down" as if it makes your OPINION somehow a fact.

BACK on topic...

This pathetic list clearly explains why we have TWO fricken' cups in 73 years. What a legacy of mediocrity. The Penguins currently have two centers who make our top 5 all-time, maybe top 3 (and they have 4 players over the last 20 years better than any player in our "storied" history).

 

[Drewbackatu*]

Whenever I read "hands down" I always know it's debatable.

While I never saw Orr, I get the mystique and the brilliance of his game - especially being a defensemen. But, Gretz exceeds the next best player, statistically, by the largest margin of any other sport. He has more assists than Messier has total points. No one is "hands down" better than Gretz. Is Orr/Gretz a great debate? Sure. It's just silly to state "hands down" as if it makes your OPINION somehow a fact.

BACK on topic...

This pathetic list clearly explains why we have TWO fricken' cups in 73 years. What a legacy of mediocrity. The Penguins currently have two centers who make our top 5 all-time, maybe top 3 (and they have 4 players over the last 20 years better than any player in our "storied" history).

Nice post. Agree with you 100% on the state of a franchise historically.
The "hands down" is a figure of speech more than anything else and I agree with you there also.

To bad you aren't old enough to have seen Orr's career, especially the earlier years before all the devastating knee injuries. He was a once in a lifetime talent, better than any player I've seen.

 

[Chief]

I originally cringed when I looked over the list but in retrospect, it's probably as good or better than a lot of team's lists over the last 30 years, which is really my frame of reference.

 

[Kershaw]

Please keep in mind that I say this as an old-time Rangers fan (my favorite player of all-time is Brad Park), but it is a real shame what a poor job the Rangers franchise has done over the years of honoring its greatest players. The fact that Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, Frank Boucher and Bryan Hextall (at a minimum) don't have their numbers retired is simply a travesty. This franchise has a very rich tradition, but unlike Toronto or Montreal, does nothing to celebrate it. It is disheartening to see modern fans who would rate Ron Dugay over Frank Boucher.

I hope that the crimes of the franchise are not repeated in the process of making this list.

They honor their tradition alright.

The only tradition they honor is 1994.

 

[Crease]

Just a friendly reminder that your top 20 lists are due a week from today (May 9). PM me your sorted list. You must submit a list if you wish to participate in the Top 10 vote during the next phase.

 

[Crease]

Hi all. Preliminary lists were originally due this upcoming Thursday, but with the playoffs in full-swing, I'd like to ask if people want me to push this back. Let me know.

 

[mike14]

Hi all. Preliminary lists were originally due this upcoming Thursday, but with the playoffs in full-swing, I'd like to ask if people want me to push this back. Let me know.

I'm still working on my 15-20 group but will have it done for tomorrow. Not fussed at all if people want to extend it a bit

 

[Cake or Death]

If it hasn't been mentioned, it's worth noting that Boucher was credited with a retro Conn Smythe for the 1928 playoffs, which he honestly would have won in all likelihood had the award existed at that time. Being the only NYR center on this list who would be considered a playoff MVP chould/should be another point in his favor imho. More on the retro Smythe project here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_Conn_Smythe

 

[AWall THE CLAW]

1. BrassGod
2.BrassGod
3.BrassGod
4.BrassGod
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20. BrassGod

Problem?

No but really.

1. Mess
2. Gretz
3. Ratelle

I also think Beaver gets a place somewhere for his 2012 Playoffs.

 

[Crease]

If it hasn't been mentioned, it's worth noting that Boucher was credited with a retro Conn Smythe for the 1928 playoffs, which he honestly would have won in all likelihood had the award existed at that time. Being the only NYR center on this list who would be considered a playoff MVP chould/should be another point in his favor imho. More on the retro Smythe project here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_Conn_Smythe

Nice find CoD! One minor nit about the bolded. Phil Watson is on our list of eligible centers and was retroactively awarded the Conn Smythe in 1939/40.

 

[Cake or Death]

Nice find CoD! One minor nit about the bolded. Phil Watson is on our list of eligible centers and was retroactively awarded the Conn Smythe in 1939/40.

I saw that, too, but for some reason I thought I remembered reading some time back that Watson was predominately a RW, who played some C and on rare occasion LW. Never easy to say with these old school players, some of them position hopped with a frequency we don't see today. But I reckon if he played C at all, and he was definitely playing C in 1940 when they won the Cup, then Watson rightly belongs on this list. Especially with how craptastic our history is at C. Dug this up from two sources:

"Watson's greatest moment came in the 1940 Stanley Cup playoffs, when he tied Neil Colville for the team scoring lead en route to the championship... Watson was brilliant in the semi-finals against Boston, checking the famed "Kraut Line," who finished 1-2-3 in NHL regular season scoring. Watson held them to just a lone goal in their six game series. Watson, meanwhile, scored twice, including the winner in game one. Watson would do a similar defensive job against Toronto, while adding 5 points in the finals."