Confirmed with Link: [NYR/NSH] Michael Del Zotto for Kevin Klein

[NHRangerfan]

First, I never claimed he was an offensive dynamo, nor that he was a better player than McDonagh.

Second, McDonagh got more overall minutes, including even strength (where BOTH players tended to get most of their points, even this season).

Third, your best attempts to move the goalposts notwithstanding, let's go back to your statement that I disagreed with to start this whole thing--you claimed that he was never a PMD, that he had grown very little since his rookie year, and that AV had nothing to do with his struggles this season. Aside from this season, his career average is 35-40 points per season (including his poor sophomore season), his defense IS light years better than it was (when played on his proper side), and it is only this season that he seems to be regressing from what had been a four-season upward trend.

Those are facts. They are obvious. Frankly, I think you know that, which is why you tried to twist it into a debate about McD vs. MDZ.

I'm not turning this into a debate about McD vs MDZ, simply using MCD's #'s to show that MDZ isn't the great offensive PMD you claim he is...the ES minutes per game difference is 5:00 in McD's favor...which would seem to me to be close to a wash with the 3:20+ PP/TOI differential in MDZ's favor considering MDZ scored 34% of his points on the PP.

 

[Raspewtin]

It is not an overreaction at all. When was the last time Staal played anything close to a full season? You've got to go back a ways. This isn't being overly cautious (if it were Girardi instead of Staal, I wouldn't be nearly as worried). Based on the last few years, it's a question of when, not if, Staal misses significant time. That's a shame, as Staal is one of my favorite Rangers. We now have zero cover for that spot. Having that cover/insurance was more important to me than having three RHD right this moment as opposed to a few months from now (either in the FA market, where players like Klein are available all the time, or from within, with McI and Allen being close to NHL ready).

As for how to be "fair" to Del Zotto, the easiest thing to do would be to give him PP time to get his minutes up (similar to the way Cally gets more minutes on special teams than he does at even strength). Del Zotto has done as well with his PP time this year as McD has done with his. Putting MDZ on the first unit and McD on the second would have given MDZ the minutes he needed and kept McD fresh for a post season run (McD and Girardi are being skated into the ground just as much under AV as they were under Torts--that worries me a bit, as we need those two to have something left if we are going to even be respectable in the playoffs).

He was literally force fed powerplay time two straight years, and didn't do anything with those minutes. He's not a PP QB. I'm obviously not saying it's his fault the PP sucked, because it wasn't, but he was given every opportunity by Torts to succeed and he didn't do it. And why would AV **** up what's going well? Richards and McD at the points is working, why screw that up? What coach in the world would screw that up?

It's frustrating because Staal can't stay healthy, but we didn't have much of an option. DZ wasn't succeeding here, we couldn't keep him just in case Staal's career ends. It's unfortunate to get rid of the back up plan, but it's not fair to the back up plan. DZ isn't a third pair defenseman, and unless he has a solidified spot on the second pair, he's not being properly utilized.

 

[OverTheCap]

Del Zotto has always been an inconsistent player, so I don't think it's AV's fault for DZ's poor play this year. However, I do think the situation could have been handled better by both AV and the organization.

One of the issues was that AV didn't really know what type of player he was getting in Del Zotto - he once described Del Zotto as a "skating" defenseman, and was very surprised by his inconsistency. He should have done more research on DZ, and the organization should have given AV a more accurate representation of what Del Zotto's capabilities are. I don't think AV or Del Zotto were ever really on the same page and perhaps that could have been avoided if the organization had a more honest discussion about Del Zotto's limitations and what can be done by the coaching staff to see if they can help him improve.

 

[stan the caddy]

I think the team expected him to grow from '11-12. He hasn't.

If you want to blame a sports hernia, or AV, or whatever, fine. Pro sports isn't a place for excuses.

He hasn't shown enough to be put ahead of the depth chart of McDonagh and Staal on the left side, and hes due a raise this summer. Thats all there really is to it.

He was fine last year. If adjusting to AVs scheme isn't a legit excuse then we have a pretty poor group of defenseman. They've all been wildly inconsistent.

And as far as his raise goes, RFAs don't exactly break the bank.

 

[Cassano]

KK is a good player.

Let's also be honest here… MDZ has played awful uninspired hockey this year. Some team wasn't about to call up offering a young top pairing defenseman for him.

I'm not denying that he didn't play well, but the Rangers IMO traded him at his lowest possible value. The past 2 years, MDZ has been a fine top 4 defender that you wouldn't have even imagined pawning him off during the offseason for a physical, 29 yr #4-5 defender.

Look at what Calgary gave up for Ladislav Smid, from a divisional rival no less! A 6th round goalie and a AHL tweener in Roman Horak! Smid more or less is very similar to Klein, except he's a lefty!

 

[smoneil]

I was never pretending that. What I'm saying is that MDZ won't get the PP time because it looks good with McDonagh on it. I've said before that none of this is MDZ's fault. But neither is it AV's nor is it Sather's. Circumstances played out in a certain way. It happens.



See, I disagree. Staal was never worse than MDZ this season. MDZ was our worst defenseman on the ice a lot of nights. When it wasn't him, it was Moore. Del Zotto has been tried, by the way, on Staal's right. He's played there before and looked decent doing it, but that was in the past. He didn't look good there this year.



John Moore has qualities that DZ doesn't that make him appealing to AV. Particularly his skating. You shouldn't fault a coach for evaluating which players fit better for what he wants out of them. That's his job.

Mostly, though, I think it is a little strange to have this strong of a reaction over a trade when we haven't even see how the acquisition fits in our lineup yet.

Re: McD and the power play--I just said in another post why I would have wanted McD on the second unit. I get not wanting to mess with something that works, but it seems to work just as well with MDZ, and I don't really want McD run into the ground (it's tough. McD is, by far, our best defenseman and most important player after Henrik. He's earned PP time, but can he play half the game every night and still have anything left at the end of the season? I think that has been a big issue in recent years. This team relies too much on a couple of guys).

Re: Staal--I disagree. Staal was SO bad for a pretty long stretch this season. He had giveaways in the defensive zone that would have resulted in 50 page threads on here if his name was Del Zotto. People complained more about MDZ, but Staal was the worse player for quite a stretch. Also, I very much remember the games last year where MDZ was playing on Staal's right side. Frankly, I didn't think it worked last year either. That's why I was so surprised that AV tried that to start the season. It just didn't make sense to do something that had been tried and failed. Del Zotto's best hockey has always come when he played in place of Staal, not next to him.

Re: John Moore--yeah, he can skate like the wind, but so could a lot of guys who had piss poor NHL careers. Moore doesn't seem to want it enough. He hesitates along the boards and seems like he's afraid to be hit (which is odd for a guy willing to fight). I see Moore and I think "Gilroy" not "endless potential." No 23 year old defenseman is a finished product, but you would hope to see some glimmer of that potential being realized by that age. Del Zotto has done that and then some. Moore? He couldn't make the Blue Jackets and, aside from 10 games or so immediately after the trade, he's looked just as bad here.

Re: My strong reaction to the trade--I've said it a couple of times in this thread. It reeks of dark ages Ranger hockey. The last 7 or 8 years have been wonderful for me as a Ranger fan. It almost seemed too good to be true. Management kept their hands off of the youth and seemed to be taking the long road to building a team. Just when it seemed to be paying off (the run to the ECF), they just threw those years of work away and blew up the team for a big name. That clearly didn't work, as the team has gotten progressively worse the last two seasons since the trade. This move, to me, signifies that, instead of learning that they screwed up with that move, they are going to double down on that new (old) philosophy.

I'm having a strong reaction because to me, it means that instead of the Nash trade just being a one-off thing, it means that Sather is back to his old ways, and frankly, that depresses the hell out of me.

 

[NewLife]

I like this trade, it's a smart one. We all saw it, Del Zotto was finished in New York and he needs a fresh start more than anyone and although he has looked real bad most of this season we're getting a solid RHD back which we have lacked since Sauer went down more or less on a great contract, I believe it would've cost more to re-sign Del Zotto for example.

Although the whole Del Zotto situation could have been handled better, he's been expendable here for a while now and the return might been higher last season or this summer but taking Staal's health into account I don't blame the management to holding on to him too much, so overall I'm pleased with this one.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

He was fine last year. If adjusting to AVs scheme isn't a legit excuse then we have a pretty poor group of defenseman. They've all been wildly inconsistent.

And as far as his raise goes, RFAs don't exactly break the bank.

I dont think he was fine last year. In fact, he was a major culprit as to why the PP sucked so much.

And to be brutally honest, if MDZ isn't producing on the PP, hes not a good player.

 

[aufheben]

Del Zotto doesn't have skills for running a PP, IMO. He's a good passer, but we already have Zuccarello, Brassard, Stepan, and Richards. Not a great shot. Handles the puck like a grenade.

 

[Bardof425*]

Does it, actually?

I actually have no problem trading MDZ for a veteran player, but the veteran player should at least be good.

Klein >>> MDZ. So, you should be good right. Leave the advanced stats at the door. They are so often misleading. Watch Klein tonight and then apologize tomorrow.

 

[smoneil]

I'm not turning this into a debate about McD vs MDZ, simply using MCD's #'s to show that MDZ isn't the great offensive PMD you claim he is...the ES minutes per game difference is 5:00 in McD's favor...which would seem to me to be close to a wash with the 3:20+ PP/TOI differential in MDZ's favor considering MDZ scored 34% of his points on the PP.

True, but both players picked up the majority of their points at even strength. The PP was horrid under Torts. How do McD and MDZ match up on a per-minute PP pace this year (serious question)? McD has 10 PP points in about 152 pp minutes. MDZ has 5 PP points in about 82 and a half PP minutes--usually with the second unit.

Again, I don't think MDZ is a "great" offensive player. I think he's shown signs of getting there, and he's put up consistent numbers that we haven't seen from a defenseman in ten years.

 

[smoneil]

I need to head out to work. As always, I hope I'm wrong about this, but having watched a LOT of hockey and seen how this team operated in the dark ages, let's just say that I don't think I'm the one who will be eating crow in a couple years. And frankly, that's depressing as hell.

 

[stan the caddy]

I dont think he was fine last year. In fact, he was a major culprit as to why the PP sucked so much.

And to be brutally honest, if MDZ isn't producing on the PP, hes not a good player.

I disagree. His defense over the past two years was apparently extremely underrated. He was very serviceable in his own end and even logged a whole lot of minutes for a very good defensive team. This team was driven great defense when they finished first in the East and he was a big part of it.

When Staal or Girardi make a mistake they get 1/3 of the criticism "Del Zaster" gets. When McDonagh makes a mistake someone might point it out but the next day everyone goes back to acting like he's never played a bad game in his life.

*I'm not directing this at you.

For whatever reason people have been unable to accept that he improved significantly in his own end as a Ranger. Ironically, when he was a rookie he was pathetic there but so many people sang his praises and gave him a free pass.

 

[NHRangerfan]

True, but both players picked up the majority of their points at even strength. The PP was horrid under Torts. How do McD and MDZ match up on a per-minute PP pace this year (serious question)? McD has 10 PP points in about 152 pp minutes. MDZ has 5 PP points in about 82 and a half PP minutes--usually with the second unit.

Again, I don't think MDZ is a "great" offensive player. I think he's shown signs of getting there, and he's put up consistent numbers that we haven't seen from a defenseman in ten years.

I have a deliverable due before I leave in the next 45 minutes so stats will need to wait.

I was always one of the posters preaching patience with MDZ but not this season...we'll agree to disagree on him...time will tell if this was a bad move or not.

 

[Bardof425*]

Who cares about puck possession; how often does he fall down?

You trying to bring Boyle into this back and forth? Really? Say something useful for once without a big dash of sarcasm. I dare ya.

 

[Cassano]

Well you just said Klein's RelCorsi says he's a lousy defensive player. I believe McDonagh's RelCorsi for this year is around -1.0, while Stralman's is something absurd like +4.5 or something. Ergo, RelCorsi says Stralman is a better defender.

It's a stat that needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Klein is a very solid defensive defender. Corsi gets thrown off significantly when a player is on a team that is typically outshot by the other team. Nashville has had that problem as a defense first team.

Obviously, the stats on an individual basis can be flawed. But the reality is, so can any other stat within the book.

Relative Corsi takes into consideration of how the teammates perform as well.

I'm also taking into consideration with Klein's lack of point production (pts/60), alongside his mediocre Corsi numbers against low tier opposing players.

Rather it is simply confirmation bias IMO to suggest MDZ is awful or significantly worse than Klein, which is what's being made out to be in this thread. No proof, no facts to back it up, but rather MDZ is an idiot, he's garbage, Del Zaster, etc.

Example here:

Klein >>> MDZ. So, you should be good right. Leave the advanced stats at the door. They are so often misleading. Watch Klein tonight and then apologize tomorrow.

 

[Cassano]

Did you really think we were going to get either Yakupov or O'Reilly for Del Zotto? I don't remember any such conversation on these boards or anywhere else that would suggest the Rangers could obtain either of those two for Del Zotto. We would have had to add quite a bit.

Definitely not.

I think people who were expecting Yakupov, Zibanejad, O'Reilly,etc to begin with were out of touch with reality. Nevertheless, it was still continuously discussed.

I believe the Rangers were after a first rounder from the Avs? That would've been a better basis for a MDZ deal. A first rounder is worth way more than Klein right now IMO.

But that goes back to the original topic of discussion. Sather has no plan in place! From searching for a 1st Rounder to getting a 29 yr old bottom pair defender? What is he trying to assemble now?

 

[Trxjw]

Obviously, the stats on an individual basis can be flawed. But the reality is, so can any other stat within the book.

Relative Corsi takes into consideration of how the teammates perform as well.

I'm also taking into consideration with Klein's lack of point production (pts/60), alongside his mediocre Corsi numbers against low tier opposing players.

Rather it is simply confirmation bias IMO to suggest MDZ is awful or significantly worse than Klein, which is what's being made out to be in this thread. No proof, no facts to back it up, but rather MDZ is an idiot, he's garbage, Del Zaster, etc.

You don't need stats to back it up, because it was clearly evident with a pair of eyes. You're taking Klein's lack of production into consideration, which to me, automatically invalidates what you're trying to argue for. He's a defensive defender. His job is to help keep pucks out of the net, not put them in the opposing one. Simply put: Del Zotto has proven to be a defensive liability and was unable to secure a role with this team. Klein is more in line with what the team wants, ergo the team made the right trade.

 

[Cassano]

You don't need stats to back it up, because it was clearly evident with a pair of eyes. You're taking Klein's lack of production into consideration, which to me, automatically invalidates what you're trying to argue for. He's a defensive defender. His job is to help keep pucks out of the net, not put them in the opposing one. Simply put: Del Zotto has proven to be a defensive liability and was unable to secure a role with this team. Klein is more in line with what the team wants, ergo the team made the right trade.

Confirmation Bias.

Eyes are more misleading Lol.

 

[Thirty One]

You trying to bring Boyle into this back and forth? Really? Say something useful for once without a big dash of sarcasm. I dare ya.

OK. Will try.

Klein >>> MDZ. So, you should be good right. Leave the advanced stats at the door. They are so often misleading. Watch Klein tonight and then apologize tomorrow.

Yes, but your definition of misleading is anything that does not agree with your eyeballs, so there's that.

But of course, watching one game will obviously disprove that.

 

[Emptyvoid]

Solid hockey trade. We address an area of weakness (RD) using our area of depth (LD). We get a very solid defender, similar to Girardi in terms of steadiness, with a nastier skill set than most of our other dmen.

Great contract too, now Girardi and/or Stralman can't hold us by the balls.

 

[Cassano]

Dreger: Rangers Wanted Franson over Gardiner in MDZ Trade, Leafs reportedly Declined

http://snyrangersblog.com/2013-14/2...-del-zottowhen-kevin-klein-came-into-the-mix/

Dreger said, “I think it’s fair to say that they were considered a serious trade partner but I don’t think the talks ever got to a point where either said decided to sit on it for a day or two and thought that there was some sense with it. The New York Rangers really wanted a right shot defenseman and yea there was talk about Jake Gardiner but they were more interested in Cody Franson. It just didn’t seem like a good fit, it’s not that the Leafs didn’t have interest in Del Zotto, they did but they were mindful of his deficiencies as well. They thought that it was too early in the year to make that play.â€

yea there was talk about Jake Gardiner but they were more interested in Cody Franson.

Cody Franson.

It's funny how Cody Franson is routinely mocked around here, yet the group of apes in the front office reportedly tried to trade for him over freaking Jake Gardiner Lol.

Which management team is dumber? The Leafs for turning down MDZ for Franson or the Rangers for wanting Franson over Gardiner?

I wonder how it's like for other teams when Nonis and Sather are at GM meetings.

 

[Thirty One]

I think this is relevant to this discussion:

http://grantland.com/features/sean-mcindoe-nhl-grantland-dictionary/

 

[NYR Viper]

I think this is relevant to this discussion:

http://grantland.com/features/sean-mcindoe-nhl-grantland-dictionary/

I think part of the issue is that people try to use stats only or eye sight only. There has to be a balance and there has to be an understanding that the numbers may not tell the whole story.

 

[Thirty One]

I think part of the issue is that people try to use stats only or eye sight only. There has to be a balance and there has to be an understanding that the numbers may not tell the whole story.

I've never known anyone who was tried to use stats only without watching the games.