Lets look at another season then
2011-12
MDZ 77 GP
MCD 82 GP
Points
MDZ 41
MCD 32
PP TOI/G
MDZ 4:11
MCD 0:37
He isn't the offensive dynamo you make him out to be
Confirmed with Link: [NYR/NSH] Michael Del Zotto for Kevin Klein
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Lets look at another season then
2011-12
MDZ 77 GP
MCD 82 GP
Points
MDZ 41
MCD 32
PP TOI/G
MDZ 4:11
MCD 0:37
He isn't the offensive dynamo you make him out to be
smoneil
Registered User
Frankly, that's revisionist ********. His development was going great ever since the wake up call when Torts sent him to the AHL in his sophomore season. He started taking defense seriously, and followed that up with the best year of his career in his third season. Last year, he continued that pace, right up until he started playing with a sports hernia (an injury that requires surgery and directly impacts skating, which in turn impacts everything a hockey player does). His development has been "stunted" for two years before AV got here? That's just not true. The two years before AV got here were his two best seasons--seasons where he got Norris votes FFS. You are literally just making things up.
I wish. I'd love to be a 23 year old millionaire. I don't much like the idea of living in Nashville, though.
Jan Hlavic was a positive contributor to this team, but prime Marc Savard would have been something we desperately needed (a true #1 center). The team's impatience resulted in tossing away a piece that we ultimately needed, for a piece that was "useful" but was ultimately something we could have picked up for free on the UFA market. This team makes trades like that ALL. THE. TIME. It's part of the reason we never make it over the hump. The closest this team got to being competitive came after a sustained number of years of keeping our youth. Ever since the Nash trade, we've been back to the pre-lockout philosophy. That should terrify more people on here (which makes me wonder how many people were actually around for those years. I know there are a lot of younger folks on here).
I'm also wary of Marc Staal. Up until the last ten games or so, he's been a train wreck this season. He is one of my favorite Rangers, but looking at it objectively, he is a fragile NHL player, who is one hit away from his career being over, and has had far more bad games than good ones this season. His offense has completely disappeared, and there is speculation (I don't think it's a sure thing, but it's enough to be concerned about) that he will bolt for Carolina when his contract is up.
Say ANY one of those things happens (regresses due to injury, leaves for Carolina, or career ends via concussion)--look what we have now. A RD set that features Girardi, Stralman, Klein, McI and Allen, and a LD set that features McD...um John Moore, and...uh...yeah. If anything happens to Staal, then we will (thanks to this trade) be in a worse situation than we were before (as Stralman is much better than Moore on the 2nd pairing). A little patience would have resolved our "balance" issue, as we HAVE RD guys close to being NHL ready.
On the contrary, the only way you could disagree with my argument is if you ONLY HAD cable TV during the 11 games where John Moore looked like an NHL player after he first arrived from Columbus (playing ridiculously sheltered minutes, btw). If you honestly think there is anything John Moore has done that compares to what MDZ has done, then I don't know what to tell you, because you are so mind-numbingly wrong about that, and anybody with two eyes and a brain can see that.
Here's a thought--base player evaluation on what the player does, not on what people on this internet forum say about him. We had the same issue with Dubinsky in the year that he was the official forum whipping boy. The board was wrong about him, too.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
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smoneil
Registered User
Moore should have been playing in the AHL. He has been a ****show on the left AND the right all season long. MDZ played well on the left, but Moore played like **** regardless of the side. Frankly, MDZ never should have been displaced from the left for a never was like Moore to begin with.
smoneil
Registered User
All due respect, but what exactly has AV accomplished as a coach? He was handed a roster FILLED with talent, and he made the Cup finals once--no Cup victories.
And yes, when an employee comes in and screws up a prized company asset to the point that that asset has to be moved for a downgrade, then that employee is generally fired. You know. In the real world.
Ten plus years this team tried to find a 40+ point defenseman. They found one and it took AV half a season to **** it up. Yes, to me that is a fire-able offense.
AlternateSideParking
Registered User
- Dec 11, 2005
- 21,596
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Good trade. Klein is reliable. Del Zotto wasn't.
I dont see Del Zotto putting up points there. I mean, nobody puts up points under Trotz.
He will be very average there.
I mean, are people really upset about this trade? Nobody liked Del Zotto around the league.
I dont see Del Zotto putting up points there. I mean, nobody puts up points under Trotz.
He will be very average there.
I mean, are people really upset about this trade? Nobody liked Del Zotto around the league.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
- Oct 8, 2010
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He has only been a 40+ point defenseman once (unless you want to count his rookie year - I don't, he had a great start but crashed to earth fairly quickly).
Ever since his 40 point season he has left a lot to be desired offensively. His defensive game as it stands is not enough to make up for producing at a 30 point pace.
Also, he is stuck behind two superior players in McDonagh and Staal. He can't play the right side. He's too good to be on the third pairing, and we needed a top-4 righty D. What did you expect was going to happen? This is far from terrible asset management, we got a good player locked into an incredibly cheap contract for the duration of his prime years.
smoneil
Registered User
First, I never claimed he was an offensive dynamo, nor that he was a better player than McDonagh.
Second, McDonagh got more overall minutes, including even strength (where BOTH players tended to get most of their points, even this season).
Third, your best attempts to move the goalposts notwithstanding, let's go back to your statement that I disagreed with to start this whole thing--you claimed that he was never a PMD, that he had grown very little since his rookie year, and that AV had nothing to do with his struggles this season. Aside from this season, his career average is 35-40 points per season (including his poor sophomore season), his defense IS light years better than it was (when played on his proper side), and it is only this season that he seems to be regressing from what had been a four-season upward trend.
Those are facts. They are obvious. Frankly, I think you know that, which is why you tried to twist it into a debate about McD vs. MDZ.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Like he said, hyperbole.
How dare AV play Marc Staal on the 2nd pair over Michael Del Zotto. Doesn't matter that Staal was playing better than DZ even when neither player was playing great.
How dare AV play Ryan McDonagh over Michael Del Zotto on the power play? No matter that the powerplay has been at it's best in years with McDonagh on the 1st unit.
How dare he?
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
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And now Methot is a healthy scratch
.We wound up getting a better player, on the side we actually need. Nice.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
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I like how you conveniently ignore all the credit AV got for developing his stars in Vancouver, and putting the Sedins in contention for top players in the NHL. He took the Sedins from superstars, to Hart Trophy and Art Ross winners.
He made Kevin Bieksa and Alex Edler into 24 minute a game defensemen who could be relied on in all situations.
He helped make Ryan Kesler into a 40 goal scorer and Selke winner.
He made Alex Burrows, a UDFA, one of the most reliable PK'ers in the NHL.
But yeah, AV hasn't done anything. I get the vibe that you vehemently love Del Zotto.
He wasn't working here, and he wasn't going to work here. Move on.
And by the way, Del Zotto ****ed up. AV didn't **** up. Del Zotto got traded because of Del Zotto. Stop with the blind allegiance.
smoneil
Registered User
He's been a ~35 point defenseman on average for his career. He's 23 years old. Even the best PMD's don't have that kind of success at that young of an age (seriously, while there are some that do, most PMD's were NOTHING at age 23.) And again, he did actually put up 40+ points. People call Callahan a 30 goal scorer all the time, and he's NEVER actually done that. Do you call them out? I doubt it, because this board has a whipping boy mentality.
As for what I expected to happen, it's called patience. I explained exactly why this trade could be disastrous earlier in this thread. This trade instantly becomes a disaster if Staal reverts to the poor form he's had all season (before the last run of 8-10 games), gets knocked out with another injury or has his career ended with another concussion, or goes to Carolina to play with his brothers.
If ANY of those things happen, we are screwed, as John Moore, who can't even handle 3rd pairing at the moment, would be even more exposed on the second, and we have nobody particularly close to NHL ready at LD in the pipeline. This is the kind of move a team makes if it thinks it is a Cup contender and just needs one last piece. That's not the case with this team. This team is a bubble playoff team based on what we've seen this year. As such, this was a "let's do this to try and make the playoffs so we can lose in the first round" move. IE- a stupid move. The kind of move the team used to make ALL the time before 2005. I know some of you younger guys probably don't have a strong recollection of that time (not trying to be insulting at all--I don't have a strong recollection of mid-80s Ranger hockey), but for those of us who went through that, this move screams dark ages Rangers hockey move.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
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Jesus christ, overreaction after overreaction.
Why don't we trade for Marleau in case Cally's career ends? That's the same logic.
I don't know how much more you were willing to wait. He hit 40 points and got worse two straight years. He got a coach better suited to his style and he got a lot worse. Maybe, this is, I don't know, Del Zotto's fault? No. Couldn't be. It's Staal's fault for being better than him.
And by the way, were we going to keep him just in case Staal got hurt? Delusional logic. DZ deserved better than playing on the 3rd pair, anyway.
smoneil
Registered User
And you're a moderator? Seriously? You think I'm upset at AV because he played Staal and McD over MDZ? Either you are an imbecile or you are intentionally trying to stick an argument to me that I clearly haven't been making.
1st--The powerplay is better because they practice it now. Stop pretending like it sucked because of MDZ and it's good now because of McD. McD is good on the PP, but we have no idea whether or not MDZ would be as good. Del Zotto, playing far fewer games and MUCH less PP time than McD, still had 5 points to McD's 10 on the PP.
2nd--When Staal was playing poorly, he was our worst defenseman. Yes, he was playing worse than MDZ, but he needed to get the minutes to play his way out of it (or find out if he could). He had earned that right based on his earlier play the same way MDZ had earned the right to play LD over scrubs like Moore and Falk.
3rd--My issue with AV has nothing to do with Staal and McD. It has EVERYTHING to do with John Moore and Falk and the way he handled the situation in the media. I've been consistent about that.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
We're going to get about the same number of years of service out of Klein as we would have out of Del Zotto... so I don't really look at the age thing as that big of a deal. Were we going to sign DZ to more than a 4 year deal? I doubt it. We'll have to watch Klein's foot speed in the last two years of his contract, but generally we should be fine.
Ha, "Del Zotto is the one we've been waiting for the last decade!" but Im the one making things up.
He was never a particularly good defensive player, so lets leave that out of the argument, although I'd be happy to take you on there if need be. Lets focus on his offensive play which, virtually since his first few months in the NHL, has dropped like a stone.
He had a nice '11-12. The only season hes reached 40 points, which gives you the liberty to call him a "40 point defenseman" but to which I call a "guy that scored 40 points once" --- kind of like how Petr Prucha was a 30 goal scorer.
When you've got a defenseman thats been here for 5 seasons, is relegated to the 3rd pair, isn't the offensive player he used to be, wasn't a particularly good defensive player, can't play the right side, and is due a raise in a few months, I'd say the writing was on the wall.
Quite frankly, I can't believe you're getting so fired up over this guy. He certainly wasn't the player I've been waiting 10 years for. He had a ton of warts to his game and had the mental fortitude of a toddler.
There are probably 20 worse NHL cities to be in before Nashville. In fact, the only other places i would prefer to Nashville are Manhattan, Vancouver, Montreal, Boston, Denver, Chicago, and maybe Toronto.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I was never pretending that. What I'm saying is that MDZ won't get the PP time because it looks good with McDonagh on it. I've said before that none of this is MDZ's fault. But neither is it AV's nor is it Sather's. Circumstances played out in a certain way. It happens.
See, I disagree. Staal was never worse than MDZ this season. MDZ was our worst defenseman on the ice a lot of nights. When it wasn't him, it was Moore. Del Zotto has been tried, by the way, on Staal's right. He's played there before and looked decent doing it, but that was in the past. He didn't look good there this year.
John Moore has qualities that DZ doesn't that make him appealing to AV. Particularly his skating. You shouldn't fault a coach for evaluating which players fit better for what he wants out of them. That's his job.
Mostly, though, I think it is a little strange to have this strong of a reaction over a trade when we haven't even see how the acquisition fits in our lineup yet.
smoneil
Registered User
The Sedins were consensus top picks in their draft. Bieksa, Edler and Kesler were already in the system and playing with the team when AV got there. They had just broken in. Stop acting like they were scrubs who AV magically turned into hockey players.
He did do well matching Burrows with the Sedins--that was a creative idea that ended up working. That said, he had a top roster for years. At the end of the day, he won nothing with that roster.
With the Rangers? He dicked around with the confidence of our best player (Henrik). He stuck a player on his off side (Del Zotto) even though the same thing had been tried (and failed) the previous season. His reasoning for that? That he never saw video of his current team (translation--he didn't do the work he should have done). Oh, and after he put that player in a position to fail, he started scratching him randomly (and yes, it was random. The longest stretch of consecutive healthy scratches for MDZ came after two of his best games of the season) and trashing him to the media, EVEN AFTER GAMES IN WHICH DEL ZOTTO WASN'T PLAYING.
It's not blind allegiance. I honestly hope for the best for Klein, just like I hoped for the best with Nash (the last move that I hated where the board almost unanimously told me I was bonkers). This whole thing just reeks to me of pre-lockout Rangers desperation. That approach to management didn't work out so well the last time we tried it.
stan the caddy
Registered User
- Sep 27, 2011
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In fairness, DZ was rushed to the big show. He probably shouldn't have been playing his rookie season but he did score 37 points including 9 goals. He was sent down his second season and his fourth season was shortened due to a lockout. So in his only 82 game season he did in fact score 40+. That's pretty good.
Holding his first couple of seasons against him is like saying Kreider sucks because it took him years to develop. And he doesn't even play defense which a position we all know involves a hell of a lot of growing pains.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,300
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I'm not turning this into an is AV a good coach discussion, but I don't think he handled DZ well. I kinda agree there.
However, I think he was gone with or without AV.
smoneil
Registered User
It is not an overreaction at all. When was the last time Staal played anything close to a full season? You've got to go back a ways. This isn't being overly cautious (if it were Girardi instead of Staal, I wouldn't be nearly as worried). Based on the last few years, it's a question of when, not if, Staal misses significant time. That's a shame, as Staal is one of my favorite Rangers. We now have zero cover for that spot. Having that cover/insurance was more important to me than having three RHD right this moment as opposed to a few months from now (either in the FA market, where players like Klein are available all the time, or from within, with McI and Allen being close to NHL ready).
As for how to be "fair" to Del Zotto, the easiest thing to do would be to give him PP time to get his minutes up (similar to the way Cally gets more minutes on special teams than he does at even strength). Del Zotto has done as well with his PP time this year as McD has done with his. Putting MDZ on the first unit and McD on the second would have given MDZ the minutes he needed and kept McD fresh for a post season run (McD and Girardi are being skated into the ground just as much under AV as they were under Torts--that worries me a bit, as we need those two to have something left if we are going to even be respectable in the playoffs).
I think the team expected him to grow from '11-12. He hasn't.
If you want to blame a sports hernia, or AV, or whatever, fine. Pro sports isn't a place for excuses.
He hasn't shown enough to be put ahead of the depth chart of McDonagh and Staal on the left side, and hes due a raise this summer. Thats all there really is to it.
smoneil
Registered User
No slight intended on Nashville or its culture. I just hate heat. I wouldn't survive the summers.
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