Proposal: NYR Girardi Raanta --- DRW Howard Jurco

[Irishguy42]

This is a bad trade.

I want to get rid of Girardi, but not for Howard in return and losing Raanta.

 

[Beacon]

He's not movable because of his NMC. No team is going to stick themselves with having to protect Girardi and let another defensemen be exposed instead.

and lol at even mentioning Girardi and first pair in the same paragraph

Nobody wants to stay on a team that doesn't want him. If the Rangers want to trade him, his agent will arrange for a team that does want him.

Girardi has been a first pair defenseman his whole life. He has been one of the top shut down defensemen in the game. He slipped last season, but the team claims it's because he was playing injured. It's unlikely, but not impossible that he returns to first pair form. It is very plausible that he becomes a second pair defenseman.

 

[bernmeister]

Debatable....

yes.
but Girardi was severely physically broken and still playing.
Should not have happened except for stupidity of AV not playing McIlrath who has looked good when playing, but that is the fact

Ericsson's excuse is ?

I....

don't understand how Girardi is more useful to Detroit than Howard is.
the premise is Detroit does not want Howard, and no one else does either.

If Girardi plays 3rd pair mins, does strictly zone, no man to man, and just has to do positional play and shot blocking, he can contribute. Will be horribly overpaid for it, but can actually contribute. Then with the next major injury he either gets out LTIR due to cumulative damage, or if he sticks it out, you can trade him after next July. By that time buy out is reasonable.

If not for NMC impact on expansion draft, we would not be having this conversation.

Backup goalie is still a role that needs to be filled. Especially with a very young starting goalie.

Hence Raanta.
If you want to acquire a young netminder, we have several in development.
Let us know.


Raanta isn't a clear upgrade on Howard,
disagree. Raanta looked good spelling Hank, and immediately prior was fine in Chicago, only moved due to logjam w/Darling and Crawford.
Production aside, Raanta removes an entire area as a financial headache.

and adding Girardi (as a player) doesn't really improve Detroit as they need good dmen, not depth.
Walk before you run.
You can't add good guys unless you move deadwood
Howard is deadwood
Girardi is deadwood
want to see if with the appropriate sweetener we can swap deadwood


So they're getting an extra year of a terrible (arguably worse) contract that needs to be exposed in the expansion draft because ??????
$ amounts on contract are very close, I think less than quarter mil.
Yes it is an extra year.
Doesn't matter in this instance if on a scale of 1 to 10 for both guys, Howard is a hair better than Girardi.
Girardi is an actual RD which is in shortage league wide and my understanding is also Detroit.
It is a very limited application, but he can be used.
Howard, not so much. But that doesn't matter for NY cause they have Hank and would only use Howard for upwards of a year.

So the first reason is obtaining Raanta
2nd reason, there is some complementary mutual helping out there.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF
you can definitely move Howard for that number, multi year, for a better return, sure.
But don't see it.

Here's the problem with this trade -- and you hit on it in your initial justification.

Obviously, NYR doesn't want Howard -- they're not going to spend close to $14m in goal, and even if they did, it wouldn't be for very long. So, somehow the Rangers are going to have to find a way to move him.

So, from the Wings perspective, there's only 2 elements at play -- between Howard and Girardi, who would you rather have until you can find somewhere to trade them? and who is easier to trade?

To me, the answer for Detroit is clearly Howard, so there's really no deal to be made here.

pls note above
No one wants Howard. His game does not project to get better. MAYBE Rangers guru goal coach can change that somewhat MAYBE.

girardi was beat up badly.
he has healed
his skills have declined.
however, it is hoped that with the healing, some ability remains, if it is in a program complementary to his ability, ie shotblocking, positional play, etc.
he can play with some improvement
Howard, his reflexes should not be better with age.
Technique, ok remains to be seen, but short of a Benoit Allaire, why is he improved there?

This is a bad trade.
I want to get rid of Girardi, but not for Howard in return and losing Raanta.

It is overpay, I agree, but if they take the NMC they deserve to get reasonable profit for their trouble.
Raanta is key for them
We slide on Howard for a while, then Skapski et al come into play.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Nobody wants to stay on a team that doesn't want him. If the Rangers want to trade him, his agent will arrange for a team that does want him.

Girardi has been a first pair defenseman his whole life. He has been one of the top shut down defensemen in the game. He slipped last season, but the team claims it's because he was playing injured. It's unlikely, but not impossible that he returns to first pair form. It is very plausible that he becomes a second pair defenseman.

You're missing the point with the NMC. He must be protected in the expansion draft. There are only 3 slots for defensemen. A team taking Girardi on will likely have to expose someone they wouldn't otherwise want to.

and holy crap hyperbole haha. He has never been one of the top shutdown defensemen in the game. He was a first pairing defenseman in his own right for about a season or two thanks to Torts system that predicated standing in the lanes and blocking shots. The guy is a warrior but you're vastly overrating his career.

 

[bernmeister]

we have several no under any circumstances,
leaning no but would do something around Girardi Ericsson
some who would do something around Girardi Howard
and some from Rangers saying not worth it.

---------

Thanks to all
pls keep it coming

I am off to see Paul McCartney
and will be crushed for a coupla days

til then................

 

[Mad Brills*]

Gorton takes this and runs.

 

[aufheben]

Det has $ problems, as to some extent does NY.
Wings heavy $ on D and goaltending.
If NY could help out there, a reciprocal backscratch would be in order.

Sorry, how does dropping Dan Girardi on them alleviate this?

 

[Beacon]

Sekera was traded for a first round pick and a kid who was just drafted in the second round, and it wasn't a rip off, it was widely regarded as the going rate. When a team needs a depth defenseman and doesn't want to mortgage the future, they'll take Girardi, especially if the Rangers are willing to take a guy back who makes a couple million without much use.

Whatever player that team will have to expose in the expansion draft to protect Girardi will certainly be worth less than #1+#2; in fact, almost certainly less than just the #2 alone.

Some teams that are going hardcore for the Cup may not mind throwing away top picks/prospects to get rentals, but many other teams may decide that they are not in position to win the Cup yet, but they want a veteran to help their kids make a deep run by giving them more depth and the experience of going to the ECF three times including once to the SCF. For that team, getting Girardi makes a hell of a lot more sense than trading away the farm to get Sekera.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Columbus offers Clarkson for Girardi

 

[Eric Sachs]

Sekera was traded for a first round pick and a kid who was just drafted in the second round, and it wasn't a rip off, it was widely regarded as the going rate. When a team needs a depth defenseman and doesn't want to mortgage the future, they'll take Girardi, especially if the Rangers are willing to take a guy back who makes a couple million without much use.

Whatever player that team will have to expose in the expansion draft to protect Girardi will certainly be worth less than #1+#2; in fact, almost certainly less than just the #2 alone.

Some teams that are going hardcore for the Cup may not mind throwing around top picks/prospects at rentals, but many other teams may decide that they are not in position to win the Cup yet, but they want a veteran who help their kids make a deep run by giving them more depth and the experience of going to the ECF three times including once to the SCF. For that team, getting Girardi makes a hell of a lot more sense than trading away the farm to get Sekera.

Makes sense if you completely ignore the fact that Sekera when traded was miles better than Girardi at this point in his career.

More comparable to Nick Holden than anyone else traded recently.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Makes sense if you completely ignore the fact that Sekera when traded was miles better than Girardi at this point in his career.

and was a rental

 

[Eric Sachs]

and was a rental

yea but Gaustad once returned a 1st!!

 

[gorangers0525]

There is not a single team, coach or system that Girardi would be effective with. He can't do anything that good NHL defenseman are capable of. I'd question him on the top pairing of an AHL team.


He is untradeable.

 

[Finnish your Czech]

yes.
but Girardi was severely physically broken and still playing.
Should not have happened except for stupidity of AV not playing McIlrath who has looked good when playing, but that is the fact

Ericsson's excuse is ?



don't understand how Girardi is more useful to Detroit than Howard is.
the premise is Detroit does not want Howard, and no one else does either.

If Girardi plays 3rd pair mins, does strictly zone, no man to man, and just has to do positional play and shot blocking, he can contribute. Will be horribly overpaid for it, but can actually contribute. Then with the next major injury he either gets out LTIR due to cumulative damage, or if he sticks it out, you can trade him after next July. By that time buy out is reasonable.

If not for NMC impact on expansion draft, we would not be having this conversation.


Hence Raanta.
If you want to acquire a young netminder, we have several in development.
Let us know.


Raanta isn't a clear upgrade on Howard,
disagree. Raanta looked good spelling Hank, and immediately prior was fine in Chicago, only moved due to logjam w/Darling and Crawford.
Production aside, Raanta removes an entire area as a financial headache.

and adding Girardi (as a player) doesn't really improve Detroit as they need good dmen, not depth.
Walk before you run.
You can't add good guys unless you move deadwood
Howard is deadwood
Girardi is deadwood
want to see if with the appropriate sweetener we can swap deadwood


So they're getting an extra year of a terrible (arguably worse) contract that needs to be exposed in the expansion draft because ??????
$ amounts on contract are very close, I think less than quarter mil.
Yes it is an extra year.
Doesn't matter in this instance if on a scale of 1 to 10 for both guys, Howard is a hair better than Girardi.
Girardi is an actual RD which is in shortage league wide and my understanding is also Detroit.
It is a very limited application, but he can be used.
Howard, not so much. But that doesn't matter for NY cause they have Hank and would only use Howard for upwards of a year.

So the first reason is obtaining Raanta
2nd reason, there is some complementary mutual helping out there.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF
you can definitely move Howard for that number, multi year, for a better return, sure.
But don't see it.




pls note above
No one wants Howard. His game does not project to get better. MAYBE Rangers guru goal coach can change that somewhat MAYBE.

girardi was beat up badly.
he has healed
his skills have declined.
however, it is hoped that with the healing, some ability remains, if it is in a program complementary to his ability, ie shotblocking, positional play, etc.
he can play with some improvement
Howard, his reflexes should not be better with age.
Technique, ok remains to be seen, but short of a Benoit Allaire, why is he improved there?




It is overpay, I agree, but if they take the NMC they deserve to get reasonable profit for their trouble.
Raanta is key for them
We slide on Howard for a while, then Skapski et al come into play.

I don't understand how you say Howard provides no value to an NHL team (and is getting worse), while Girardi is "healed" and has potential to play better. They're the same age, except Girardi plays the position and playing style with a more steep decline of play.

Howard isn't a starter, but he wasn't that bad as a backup goalie last season.

 

[Ezekial]

yes.
but Girardi was severely physically broken and still playing.
Should not have happened except for stupidity of AV not playing McIlrath who has looked good when playing, but that is the fact

Ericsson's excuse is ?

I wasn't going to justify this terrible thread with a response, but Ericsson too, is severely physically broken and still playing as well. His hips are ****ed.

But like I said, this is an absolutely terrible offer with no actual reasoning for Detroit. Why in the world would the Wings take on a worse contract for a worthless player?

 

[FireBird71]

$5.5AAV for a terrible D who might or might not beat out Ericsson, but is still probably one of the worst Dmen in the NHL, and has one more year beyond Howard's contract, and has to be protected in the expansion draft? Yeah, as a Detroit fan, I can't wait to take that worthless contract/player on.



No part of any of this does anything for Detroit in any way, shape or form. Please keep your trash D, and we'll work on moving Howard with retention next season.

They'll keep him for another season..expose him in the Expansion draft and if he isn't taken I can see the Wings buying him out

 

[njx9]

They'll keep him for another season..expose him in the Expansion draft and if he isn't taken I can see the Wings buying him out

Absolutely. Though I think he's movable when his contract is basically 2 years for $2.5m, which would be preferable to a buy out.

stuff

Your entire reasoning boils down to "the Wings desperately want to move Howard, so they should take Girardi, a worse player who costs more and steals an expansion slot from a player who can actually play, because it will help the Rangers out." Forgive Wings fans for not jumping at the chance to help you unload a bad contract for a bad player who offers no value, whatsoever, to the team.

We're infinitely better off putting any of the 2-3 NHL-ready prospects in GR on the right side than we would be taking the horrendous contract off your hands, just to unload one we can easily unload as early as next season. This is a terrible proposal and none of your justifications even come close to changing that. There isn't a single Wings fan who's even thought twice about this. Maybe it's time to recognize that.

 

[TGWL]

This isn't a good deal for either team. If we take Howard, just for a temp holding placement, what happens when he barely gets playing time behind Hank? How many offers do you see coming in a year when we try to get rid of him?

 

[eco's bones]

I don't think there is a market for a goalie who is no longer starter quality and who has almost a $5.3 mil cap hit for the next three years.

Most teams already have very good goaltending and Howard is backup material now. Who is going to take him in a trade? If no team or almost no team could use him in a starting role now--what does that picture look like a year from now and if his play continues to decline?

I suspect what's going to happen to Howard in the future is not a trade but a buyout.

 

[Blue Goose]

What I find so interesting about this proposal (and don't get me wrong - Bern's proposals are ALWAYS a hoot) is that Girardi and Howard are VERY similar in that they have SO much more value to their current team than they would to anyone else. They both fill a need to their respective team, where their bloated contracts are not necessarily a hindrance for this coming season. No other team will/should trade for them when they can easily find more suitable players at a much lesser cost, and trading them for each other makes no sense at all. In a sense, they are "valuable players who have no value".

I could easily see the same outlook for both players: play out the '16-17 season, be exposed for the expansion draft (if Girardi even can be), and then bought out if LV doesn't select them.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

What I find so interesting about this proposal (and don't get me wrong - Bern's proposals are ALWAYS a hoot) is that Girardi and Howard are VERY similar in that they have SO much more value to their current team than they would to anyone else. They both fill a need to their respective team, where their bloated contracts are not necessarily a hindrance for this coming season. No other team will/should trade for them when they can easily find more suitable players at a much lesser cost, and trading them for each other makes no sense at all. In a sense, they are "valuable players who have no value".

I could easily see the same outlook for both players: play out the '16-17 season, be exposed for the expansion draft (if Girardi even can be), and then bought out if LV doesn't select them.

I honestly dont think Girardi has any value to NYR anymore. IMO they would be better off without him and replacing him from within. a crop of Klein/McDonagh/McIlrath/Skjei/Staal/Holden is likely better than a mix with Girardi included. He is just so far removed from being an effective defensive dman and he is a black hole of possession and offense and lacks the legs to push the pace in an AV system

Howard still poses some value to Detroit because Mrazek has yet to prove he can be a full season #1 and might need one more year where he gets a good chunk of rest and needs a tandem netminder that can eat ~30 games for him

Howard is a burden because of his contract and detroits cap structure right now, but his play is definitely still usable.

Girardi is a triple threat of bad contract, NYRs cap structure, and his play is just real bad right now. His advanced stats are basically dead last in the entire NHL

 

[Machinehead]

Feel the bern

 

[Doriva]

Wait ? A Bern proposal where nobody is given a house, the cba doesn't change and a player isnt forcibly made to retire ?

1/10 for effort here Bern.

 

[bernmeister]

Sorry, how does dropping Dan Girardi on them alleviate this?

your quote is referencing "this":

Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Det has $ problems, as to some extent does NY.
Wings heavy $ on D and goaltending.
If NY could help out there, a reciprocal backscratch would be in order.

as noted it does not
It does entirely resolve their G issues short term, w/Raanta added.

Their goaltending is also way over.

The move exacerbates the prob for Rangers goaltending and Wings defense,
while reciprocally making it better for Rangers defense and Wings goaltending.

so why do it?

Detr. - Howard: do not want. So much so they are seriously thinking of buyout, but holding off because of cap hit. That is factually correct MO [modus operandi, method of operation] so far.

Howard #s are better #s than Girardi.
But after next July 1, Girardi can be bought out more favorably than now
or
there is basis to expect that he has cumulative damage built in and one more injury that has him go down could very possibly mean ongoing LTIR; that is not ideal, but it does create roster flexibility, more than Howard sitting/bought out w/higher cap hit
or
if limited use, Girardi could rebound in a non-AV zone. 3RD at 8-13 mins nite, half the burden he's had to carry so far.
ALSO, he is actual righty, which is short supply currently in NHL.

The only real negative is the NMC carryover for this upcoming year only. Trying to see if Wings can take a reasonable profit to swap of headaches, starting with sweetener or Raanta.

so following the review, direct answer to your ? is, it does not help Wings exclusively as to D problem, makes THAT worse, but it is a step back to go a step + forward

---------
just getting back still swamped
will catch up by w/e
thnx

 

[Section32]

You're missing the point with the NMC. He must be protected in the expansion draft. There are only 3 slots for defensemen. A team taking Girardi on will likely have to expose someone they wouldn't otherwise want to.

and holy crap hyperbole haha. He has never been one of the top shutdown defensemen in the game. He was a first pairing defenseman in his own right for about a season or two thanks to Torts system that predicated standing in the lanes and blocking shots. The guy is a warrior but you're vastly overrating his career.

I basically agree, but he has literally shut down some of the best offensive forwards of this generation in multiple playoff series over a number of years.

Regardless, of what people like to say about him, he was that good against Ovechkin, Crorby, Maklin, Giroux...for many, many important games.