Confirmed with Link: NYR Fire John Davidson and Jeff Gorton

[will1066]

It's funny because I felt like if last season was a full year, we actually slide out of the playoffs.

This year, if it was a full season, I felt like we actually slide into the playoffs (if we stay healthy).

And yet, because they weren't full seasons, there is a belief that we declined. I don't think we actually did, I think we're more or less the same team and one that could slip in or slip out of the playoffs depending on a few factors.

It's extremely difficult to use this season to accurately compare with last season because just by the nature of the schedule filled with baseball-style 2- to 4-game sets against the divisional opponents over and over, and then the disruptions related to the covid protocol, and Panarin's international intrigue. The team beat up on the weaker half of the division and couldn't keep up with the top half of it.

 

[Edge]

For what it's worth as much as I absolutely loathe Quinn I don't think we declined this year. But I think that has a lot to do with Fox, Shesterkin, and Martin. Not really Quinn.

I feel like Zibanejad and Kreider really hurt us this year. I think all of Fox's gains were offset by also losing ADA and replacing him with the motley crew we used.

So if Fox gains 20 points, but we lose 30 switching from ADA to Smith, I don't know if we come out ahead on that exchange --- figuratively speaking.

I think if we're not in a season-long playoff atmosphere with repeated viewings against the Islanders, Caps and others, we probably fair a little better against the average team that replaces them in our schedule.

This year is so different than any other, it's hard to make straight comparisons. I don't think any of this changes for this season play to our benefit. I think we lost more than we gained with these changes.

 

[DanielBrassard]

It's also not as simple as trading him for whom? And will that player be a top center that's a non-liability in terms of play driving? Easy to say "let's trade him" who would be his replacement?

Trade him for the best return possible. I don't think Mika Zibanejad is going to be leading this team when they are a cup contender so the motivation is moreso trading him so you aren't overpaying a declining Zibanejad during your contention window, and he isn't the guy who can lead them there as is. After that you can figure out who the replacement is.

 

[Edge]

It's extremely difficult to use this season to accurately compare with last season because just by the nature of the schedule filled with baseball-style 2- to 4-game sets against the divisional opponents over and over, and then the disruptions related to the covid protocol, and Panarin's international intrigue. The team beat up on the weaker half of the division and couldn't keep up with the top half of it.

I completely agree --- they were middle of the pack.

I tend to believe that with a broader, more diverse schedule, they probably fair slightly better against the average NHL team than they do in such a closed circuit.

They wouldn't be one of the best, not by a long shot, but I do think they'd be in the upper half and probably an 8th seed.

 

[will1066]

And where things get tricky, and a little dicey, is if your owner is now expecting you to be better.

So now you have to not only move on from Zibanejad, you actually have to upgrade there....next year.

Not a year from now. Or a year after that. Because patience isn't what the owner wants to hear.

On the one hand we're saying we should be in the playoffs. On the other hand we're talking about trading away a guy who, flaws and all, is still roughly giving us 70 point production. Even if we don't want to hitch the wagon to him long-term, it's hard to just go out and replace that.

So now you start getting into scenarios where that Eichel trade resurfaces. Yada yada yada.

These are things that go beyond Dolan blowing his stack and doing what he does today. Because if he truly feels this way, the whole process just got a lot more difficult.

If I am the owner of one of the most high profile franchises get shut out by your cross town rival 3 times without so much as even being metaphorically in the same neighborhood as the other team, and get regularly bullied, then yes I would start questioning where my franchise is headed

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Trade him for the best return possible. I don't think Mika Zibanejad is going to be leading this team when they are a cup contender so the motivation is moreso trading him so you aren't overpaying a declining Zibanejad during your contention window, and he isn't the guy who can lead them there as is. After that you can figure out who the replacement is.

Sounds exactly what Dolan had in mind when he said he wanted to speed up the rebuild trade your #1 center for who the f*** knows and then figure it out.

 

[Edge]

If I am the owner of one of the most high profile franchises get shut out by your cross town rival 3 times without so much as even being metaphorically in the same neighborhood as the other team, and get regularly bullied, then yes I would start questioning where my franchise is headed

I think if Dolan makes sense to you right now, it's probably a much deeper conversation than we have time for at 1 a.m.

 

[Edge]

Trade him for the best return possible. I don't think Mika Zibanejad is going to be leading this team when they are a cup contender so the motivation is moreso trading him so you aren't overpaying a declining Zibanejad during your contention window, and he isn't the guy who can lead them there as is. After that you can figure out who the replacement is.

That's one approach.

But if you're trying to improve your team and think it's a playoff team, it's very hard to accomplish both at the same time.

That's the challenge that Dolan has now thrown out there. Because it's not just "hey we need a change, this group isn't going to get it done." It's now, "This group isn't going to get it done, and by the way, I expect us to better."

You're not trading Zibanejad for a better player. You're trading him because you're not wanting to commit to him and THEN you're also trying to find a better player.

That's more complicated.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

My problem with ADA is if GM/coaches/teammates hated him so much, why not trade him after his monster season before re-signing him? Think.

You keep speaking. Be quiet. Think. Look at what I wrote and then look at the question you just asked bc you aren't sitting back and just thinking about this. Use your head

No one wanted the 60+ pt defenseman sitting on waivers for a super cheap salary. No one wanted to trade beans for him at 50% retained salary. Use your head

 

[n8]

If this team miraculously wins a Cup in the near future is anyone really going to credit Drury? We’d have to be looking at a pretty dramatic overhaul of the roster for it to not be Gorton’s team.

I’m rooting for Drury, but the foundation is laid, the framing is up, the electrical and the walls are in. He’s pretty much starting at the painting phase.

I think if we win a cup in the near future, Drury will get a lot of credit because it will mean he hired the right coach. No way Quinn gets the job done. I don't think anyone will forget the parts Gorton brought in to lay the foundation though.

 

[ohbaby]

It's not the be all end all, but as I posted I heard through grapevine that they didn't even know about the statement. The grapevine goes back to a prominent player's father. I know it's a rumor and not something I expect people to take as gospel but it's coming from a trusted friend.

Don't be naïve.

The owners are part of the NHL brass. The owners are the NHL. Not the Commissioner or the NHL Department of Player Safety. There is no way Dolan issued a statement against his own interest. This is why he reacted so quickly after the release of that statement. And it's delusional to think Dolan doesn't have the sources and power to intentionally mislead us.

But the truth couldn't be more obvious. In fact he really has to take a great leap in faith, that we are so stupid, that we can't see our hands in front of our faces. That is even more egregious than the firings.

I'm so glad this happened at the end of the season. It would have been very difficult to watch Rangers games if this turn of events happened earlier in the season. At least now I have a few months to get over this complete malfeasance of a man in power.

 

[Cypruss]

So Tom Wilson just destroyed two of our best players and cleaned out our front office

Wow. This is unbelievable and I can't help but think how happy Caps fans are

Tom Wilson destroyed our organization

And it only cost $5,000

 

[CLW]

Doubtful.

I think you're early candidates (for better or worse) are Gallant, Montgomery, Tocchet and maybe Julien.

I think this is likely. And it will also derail the rebuild. Guys like these have no patience with kids or any great interest to teach them. It's win now with them. If the kids don't perform they start to get moved around or ride the pine.

So kids will be shipped out for known veterans to make the team look more like the Isles and the Caps. That's what speeding up the rebuild means.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

After last playoff disaster if we would have fired Quinn and hired Laviolette (who was available) would we have made the playoffs? I think yes.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Sounds exactly what Dolan had in mind when he said he wanted to speed up the rebuild trade your #1 center for who the f*** knows and then figure it out.

That's not going to be how it plays out, there's going to be guys they target. My point was that from my perspective is that it doesn't really matter what you get back for Zibanejad, not being put into a position where there is basically no other choice but to sign him should not be an option, neither should losing him for nothing. Even if it means not having a replacement right away. Maybe for Dolan it's not that way, impossible to know. However I think the likelihood is that we do aggressively pursue Eichel so if it makes you feel better. The plan is trade Zibanejad, then either use those assets+some other assets to acquire Eichel or keep them instead and trade pieces from the organization for Eichel.

 

[DanielBrassard]

That's one approach.

But if you're trying to improve your team and think it's a playoff team, it's very hard to accomplish both at the same time.

That's the challenge that Dolan has now thrown out there. Because it's not just "hey we need a change, this group isn't going to get it done." It's now, "This group isn't going to get it done, and by the way, I expect us to better."

You're not trading Zibanejad for a better player. You're trading him because you're not wanting to commit to him and THEN you're also trying to find a better player.

That's more complicated.

Absolutely, and it is going to be an extremely fine line for GMCD to walk. For me it is the best path forward though, even if the cost of doing that hurts more than we would like.

 

[will1066]

I feel like Zibanejad and Kreider really hurt us this year. I think all of Fox's gains were offset by also losing ADA and replacing him with the motley crew we used.

So if Fox gains 20 points, but we lose 30 switching from ADA to Smith, I don't know if we come out ahead on that exchange --- figuratively speaking.

I think if we're not in a season-long playoff atmosphere with repeated viewings against the Islanders, Caps and others, we probably fair a little better against the average team that replaces them in our schedule.

This year is so different than any other, it's hard to make straight comparisons. I don't think any of this changes for this season play to our benefit. I think we lost more than we gained with these changes.

Not only 30 points went away with ADA, it was also competitive fire and a nasty @Edge. I wholeheartedly believe ADA if he was on the ice during the Wilson incident wouldn't have hesitated for a second to rip him off Buch or cross checked him in the back and then put the shaft of his hockey stick across his face.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

And it only cost $5,000

Tom Wilson is the fixer, he potentially fixed our team going forward. We got rid of 2 reluctant individuals that were not willing to make the right moves and instead made wrong moves or at best no moves.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Not only 30 points went away with ADA, it was also competitive fire and a nasty @Edge. I wholeheartedly believe ADA if he was on the ice during the Wilson incident wouldn't have hesitated for a second to rip him off Buch or cross checked him in the back and then put the shaft of his hockey stick across his face.

I completely agree. Only problem I had with ADA is he sometimes sucked defensively.

 

[Rempe73]

I think we really struggle against the Islanders. I just think their style is complete kryptonite for us.

I don't think we struggle nearly as much against anyone else in our division. I do think we're dead in the water right now with Trouba, Lindgren, Kreider and now Panarin out though.

In other words, we're a middle of the pack team in a season where we don't know how we stack up against the remaining 23 teams.

I get it, but I don’t like that excuse. That just means we should play even harder against them, and we don’t. We clearly looked different when we beat them vs. when we lost to them in those two must-win games. And what about the Hurricanes?

To be clear, I don’t think the answer is an enforcer per se.

 

[will1066]

I think if Dolan makes sense to you right now, it's probably a much deeper conversation than we have time for at 1 a.m.

Let's continue later today

 

[Edge]

Absolutely, and it is going to be an extremely fine line for GMCD to walk. For me it is the best path forward though, even if the cost of doing that hurts more than we would like.

I guess I'd feel more comfortable if Dolan bought into the concept of patience and understood that two steps back by trading Zibanejad might not be immediately replaced with three steps forward with his replacement.

If moving Zibanejad was more or less a constant in the equation, Dolan's personality has now entered into equation as a variable.

I'm less concerned about moving Zibanejad as I am forcing a subsequent move into existence. Because escaping one hanging, just to find yourself in another noose is a real possibility.

 

[Edge]

Not only 30 points went away with ADA, it was also competitive fire and a nasty @Edge. I wholeheartedly believe ADA if he was on the ice during the Wilson incident wouldn't have hesitated for a second to rip him off Buch or cross checked him in the back and then put the shaft of his hockey stick across his face.

I tend to think nothing would've substantially changed other than ADA getting his ass kicked on top of things.

The problem with Wilson is you have to be willing to take an eye for eye. It's not him you go after, its Backstrom. I don't know if ADA is that guy either.

 

[Edge]

I get it, but I don’t like that excuse. That just means we should play even harder against them, and we don’t. We clearly looked different when we beat them vs. when we lost to them in those two must-win games. And what about the Hurricanes?

To be clear, I don’t think the answer is an enforcer per se.

I think there's the divide. Some people think it's an excuse, some think its a reality.

Teams are middle of the pack for exactly the reasons were debating --- they're not always hard to play against and they're not consistent. If they weren't, they'd be better teams.

I think we all enjoy the concept of the loveable losers --- the guys who don't always win but are always entertaining, or really try hard but come up just short. But I don't know if that happens too often. Typically being a mediocre team is a rather unenjoyable experience.

We look like shit against the Islanders, we'd previously fought hard against the Caps and took an unprecedented four of four from the Devils.

I think the Hurricanes exposes us for exactly the team we are and shattered the mirage some people had when our season was halted. That team was 5-4-1 when the stoppage occurred. The peak that everyone remembers was already over, they were likely trending down at that point.

 

[Pizza]

To be clear, I don’t think the answer is an enforcer per se.

I'll admit my perspective may be a bit clouded right now in all the chaos but....

The Rangers have just been man handled several games in a row. Exposed as a pathetically weak and leaderless team.

An argument could be made right now that an "enforcer" just destroyed our organization.

Just blew it up.

No player has done more damage to the Rangers than Wilson since Dave Schultz.

Maybe the silver lining is that we now find out that Chris Drury truly is the wunderkind they've been saying he is since he won that kid world series thing.

I truly hope so.