Proposal: Nyr-car

[bernmeister]

good effort by OP, but I see Murphy more as a throw in on a larger deal than a main piece:

something around
Stepan
for
Pesce, Murphy, cap dump Bickell, return of NYR 2nd and add Canes 2nd, 2017

haven't finalized, but that is my thinking
rangers have multiple more deals, but this helps on their RD, and helps w/team salary structure. adds an expansion draft exempt asset.

Canes get the 20th best C, approx, under term, for top $ but getting cheaper over bal of deal.

what is this trash?

feel free to elaborate

#FeelTheBern

Rangers aren't trading Stepan after just trading Brassard. The sooner you come to that realization, bern, the better.

He IS gone before that NMC kicks in.
Logic dictates if all else is =, then trading him earlier is smarter, 'cause:

1) acquiring team pays more to get asset earlier; and
2) eliminates risk of headache/complication if Stepan gets injured [we could THEN be stuck with him and the NMC which otherwise doesn't matter cause it only kicks in after this season.

This. No interest in dealing Stepan in general anymore

Rangers pass on the OP, would surely do the deal for Fleury mentioned in this thread but doubt the Canes would

Get interested.
THIS TEAM WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN.

More overhaul needed.
Face reality.
Move Step for a premium

 

[59Rosebuds]

Previously I would have moved Murphy for some of the combination of the prospects offered. But now that he is slated to be #6/#7 his value to us has increased. Especially if it puts us in a position where one of our other defensemen has to be exposed to expansion.
However if Tennyson outperforms Murphy then he could be involved in a move for another expansion eligible defenseman.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Previously I would have moved Murphy for some of the combination of the prospects offered. But now that he is slated to be #6/#7 his value to us has increased. Especially if it puts us in a position where one of our other defensemen has to be exposed to expansion.
However if Tennyson outperforms Murphy then he could be involved in a move for another expansion eligible defenseman.

So basically what you mean to say is that you're attempting to hype up his value for the purpose of this thread.

I mean if someone like Tennyson even has a chance of beating him for the 6th spot, he's not really all that valuable then.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Own up and get over what? Murphy isn't worth a lot and neither is Jensen.

I'm clearly not interested in Murphy and wouldn't give up much to get him. Especially not Lindberg and Fast, I mean what in the blue hell is that about?

You need to re-evaluate things from my perspective and get off your high horse.

I don't need to re-evaluate anything.

I wasn't talking about Lindberg and Fast, not 1 bit so direct those comments to the OP (who I think is a Rangers fan, not a Canes fan).

I was simply responded to your post saying you'd offer Jensen + a small add. And my response was simply that I'm sure you would, but the Canes wouldn't be interested, and then proceeded to explain why. To which you then gave your real insightful "Sure" response (speaking of high horses).

Regardless of Murphy's worth or your perceived value, your offer is bad because it provides absolutely nothing back to the Canes and takes away something of value, even if that value isn't great (ie..even if it's simply expansion draft fodder so they don't have to expose Faulk). I'm perfectly fine if you are not interested in Murphy and I don't blame you, as I'm not a big fan of him either, but it still doesn't mean your offer wasn't bad, because it was.

 

[RangerGuru]

feel free to elaborate



He IS gone before that NMC kicks in.
Logic dictates if all else is =, then trading him earlier is smarter, 'cause:

1) acquiring team pays more to get asset earlier; and
2) eliminates risk of headache/complication if Stepan gets injured [we could THEN be stuck with him and the NMC which otherwise doesn't matter cause it only kicks in after this season.



Get interested.
THIS TEAM WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN.

More overhaul needed.
Face reality.
Move Step for a premium

We are talking about a guy who is just 26 years old, years of prime left. Hell hes just 10 months older than your boy Kreider. Rangers should keep the young core - Stepan Kreider Hayes Miller Zibanejad Skjei McDonagh etc and even add to it if possible, dealing away Stepan and thrusting Zibby into a #1 role right away could be detrimental to both the team moving forward as well as Zibanejad's development on an individual level

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

The Canes can get Jensen for free when he is waivered to go to Hartford...

 

[Beacon]

More overhaul needed.
Face reality.
Move Step for a premium

There's no reason to move players born in the 90s. Not even for players born on the mid90s. You need vets to help the kids and young vets like Stepan and McDonagh.

 

[smoneil]

feel free to elaborate



He IS gone before that NMC kicks in.
Logic dictates if all else is =, then trading him earlier is smarter, 'cause:

1) acquiring team pays more to get asset earlier; and
2) eliminates risk of headache/complication if Stepan gets injured [we could THEN be stuck with him and the NMC which otherwise doesn't matter cause it only kicks in after this season.



Get interested.
THIS TEAM WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN.

More overhaul needed.
Face reality.
Move Step for a premium

Honestly, Bern, there are two things that aggravate me about this insistence of yours to try and trade Stepan.

1- You preach logic but don't listen to any. Poster after poster--both Rangers fans and fans of other teams--have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning. Literally nobody agrees with you. Yet you continue to start from the same premise (that he HAS to be traded because of his NMC--when we all know that you think he HAS to be traded because you've never liked the player). It's tiring. You get upset with people responding with negativity and short dismissive responses. It happens because people are tired of explaining it to you only for you to ignore them.

2- This is the key issue I have, quite frankly. If you simply limited your obsession with trading Stepan to a Stepan thread, or even to threads where trade discussion was more open-ended, I don't think anyone would care that much. We'd still disagree with you, but it wouldn't be as annoying. Look at this thread. It started as a simple thread about looking into a deal involving a #6 defensemen and a couple of bottom six players. You enter the thread and immediately derail it by ignoring the point of the thread and trying to make it into ANOTHER vehicle for your crusade. You do this a LOT. It's annoying. Immensely so.

As I've said before--you seem like a good guy, and we all have our concrete views on certain players and such. But there's a fine line between feeling something strongly and being obsessed. Transforming every unrelated thread you post in into a "trade Stepan" thread borders more on the latter than the former.

 

[One Winged Angel]

I don't need to re-evaluate anything.

I wasn't talking about Lindberg and Fast, not 1 bit so direct those comments to the OP (who I think is a Rangers fan, not a Canes fan).

I was simply responded to your post saying you'd offer Jensen + a small add. And my response was simply that I'm sure you would, but the Canes wouldn't be interested, and then proceeded to explain why. To which you then gave your real insightful "Sure" response (speaking of high horses).

Regardless of Murphy's worth or your perceived value, your offer is bad because it provides absolutely nothing back to the Canes and takes away something of value, even if that value isn't great (ie..even if it's simply expansion draft fodder so they don't have to expose Faulk). I'm perfectly fine if you are not interested in Murphy and I don't blame you, as I'm not a big fan of him either, but it still doesn't mean your offer wasn't bad, because it was.

You really do not read.

1. I wasn't talking to you. My post was a general post. I wasn't quoting or responding to anyone. It's my opinion about the OP. You responded to it.

2. I could care less about what you think about anything regarding this is any matter. You responded to me. I didn't ask for or care to hear your opinion. That's why I responded with "sure..." because I clearly do not care about what you have to say.

3. Like I said, I don't care about his "value." I don't know what his "value" is and neither do you. I said what I said because that's the most I would give up for a guy that hasn't shown me a reason worth giving up what someone like you would want for him. So to put it in short, I don't care whether you think my offer is bad, good or bat**** crazy. It's the most I would give up for someone who I don't see having an impact with the Rangers.

Don't like it? Too bad.

 

[59Rosebuds]

So basically what you mean to say is that you're attempting to hype up his value for the purpose of this thread.

I mean if someone like Tennyson even has a chance of beating him for the 6th spot, he's not really all that valuable then.

I wasn't trying to move him [MOD]. However I did point out that his value to us is more in the idea of him capitalizing on his potential or simply being someone
we can expose to the expansion.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

Honestly, Bern, there are two things that aggravate me about this insistence of yours to try and trade Stepan.

1- You preach logic but don't listen to any. Poster after poster--both Rangers fans and fans of other teams--have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning. Literally nobody agrees with you. Yet you continue to start from the same premise (that he HAS to be traded because of his NMC--when we all know that you think he HAS to be traded because you've never liked the player). It's tiring. You get upset with people responding with negativity and short dismissive responses. It happens because people are tired of explaining it to you only for you to ignore them.

2- This is the key issue I have, quite frankly. If you simply limited your obsession with trading Stepan to a Stepan thread, or even to threads where trade discussion was more open-ended, I don't think anyone would care that much. We'd still disagree with you, but it wouldn't be as annoying. Look at this thread. It started as a simple thread about looking into a deal involving a #6 defensemen and a couple of bottom six players. You enter the thread and immediately derail it by ignoring the point of the thread and trying to make it into ANOTHER vehicle for your crusade. You do this a LOT. It's annoying. Immensely so.

As I've said before--you seem like a good guy, and we all have our concrete views on certain players and such. But there's a fine line between feeling something strongly and being obsessed. Transforming every unrelated thread you post in into a "trade Stepan" thread borders more on the latter than the former.

Couldn't have said it better.

Putting aside the fact that Stepan is a key part of this team's leadership core and a close friend of a McDonagh going back to their college years; putting aside the fact that he's our best two-way center (Zibanejad or even Hayes MAY end up better at some point but as of now Stepan is the #1C); and putting aside the fact that he's been very good for us and has a very fair contract IMO:

He's the type of player who ages well. He doesn't rely on his speed or physical dominance. He relies on his brain, vision, hockey-IQ, passing ability, etc.

If he loses a step, speed-wise in a few years, I don't think it affects his game that much because he was never a fast player. He's a very smart player who knows how to read a play and make the right play. He's the kind of player other teams should call about and we laugh and hung up. We should in no way be TRYING to trade him, just because a NMC (that he earned) is going to kick in next season. Unless it's severe overpayment, Stepan should and willbe kept.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What about Lindberg+McIlrath for bad Ryan Murphy?

 

[One Winged Angel]

What about Lindberg+McIlrath for bad Ryan Murphy?

That's horrible for the Rangers.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That's horrible for the Rangers.

Only if you think Lindberg and McIlrath have value, which I don't.

 

[bernmeister]

We are talking about a guy who is just 26 years old, years of prime left. Hell hes just 10 months older than your boy Kreider. Rangers should keep the young core - Stepan Kreider Hayes Miller Zibanejad Skjei McDonagh etc and even add to it if possible, dealing away Stepan and thrusting Zibby into a #1 role right away could be detrimental to both the team moving forward as well as Zibanejad's development on an individual level

1x here as a direct response. No thread hijacking here.
As I have said repeatedly at NYR forum, it is NOT entirely about chronological age. Youth is a factor we want to keep more rather than less of, but the emphasis is to flip vets who, by virtue of seniority (which tend to be chronologically older) have higher paying contracts. Too many higher paying contracts= constriction, paralysis of roster, nothing good.

No one is giving Stepan the bum's rush. He's not being pushed out at any price.
He has to command an acceptable return with a nice profit.
If you don't think my suggestion does that, fine, let's talk
if you got a better idea for alternate trade, fine.

to be ok on this thread w/out hijacking, include ny-car aspect

Proof of this by me is I am for trading McDonagh + 3rd + 4th to Wini for Trouba + 2nd + 3rd, one which Maukkis said he'd do,

I get all that LD McD is and has meant.
But a younger RD who was 9th OA and you pick up 7+ years, + you win the picks swap is long term smart. Besides eliminating McD's NMC before it kicks in, while Trouba's RFA would be a jump from McD's 4.7 to 6ish long term, that would be a savings 6-7 years down the road. [this is besides the point that for that 1st yr, Trouba can throw us a bone and do the 1st year at 4.5, actually saving us .2, while we equalize that making his last year on a 7yr deal not 6(ish) but 7.5ish.

Manage the finances before they manage you.
Stepan deserves his 6.5, which is top $ now, and maybe not a bargain, but less expensive end of his term. But we don't have to punch that ticket, and the potential impending NMC is a killer.

I disagree on zib not handling 1C, but I have a plan - more later, elsewhere - to get a 1C and use righty zib at 1RW, while he remains a depth option at 1C

 

[bernmeister]

Couldn't have said it better.

Putting aside the fact that Stepan is a key part of this team's leadership core and a close friend of a McDonagh going back to their college years; putting aside the fact that he's our best two-way center (Zibanejad or even Hayes MAY end up better at some point but as of now Stepan is the #1C); and putting aside the fact that he's been very good for us and has a very fair contract IMO:

He's the type of player who ages well. He doesn't rely on his speed or physical dominance. He relies on his brain, vision, hockey-IQ, passing ability, etc.

If he loses a step, speed-wise in a few years, I don't think it affects his game that much because he was never a fast player. He's a very smart player who knows how to read a play and make the right play. He's the kind of player other teams should call about and we laugh and hung up. We should in no way be TRYING to trade him, just because a NMC (that he earned) is going to kick in next season. Unless it's severe overpayment, Stepan should and willbe kept.

disagree, see above
and it is a dangerous, false, usually incorrect assumption about aging well and that continued loss of physical dominance will be a minimal thing from which he can adequately adjust. A Jagr is an exception to the rule, and Stepan is no jagr, and even still, lack of speed hurts Jagr on defense.

I admit he is young enough that if this impacts his game, if at all it would be at the end of his current deal or later.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Only if you think Lindberg and McIlrath have value, which I don't.

Lindberg, who had a solid year in the Rangers bottom 6, has no value, yet Murphy who has yet to stick with Carolina of all teams does?

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[bernmeister]

Honestly, Bern, there are two things that aggravate me about this insistence of yours to try and trade Stepan.

1- You preach logic but don't listen to any. Poster after poster--both Rangers fans and fans of other teams--have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning. Literally nobody agrees with you. Yet you continue to start from the same premise (that he HAS to be traded because of his NMC--when we all know that you think he HAS to be traded because you've never liked the player). It's tiring. You get upset with people responding with negativity and short dismissive responses. It happens because people are tired of explaining it to you only for you to ignore them.

2- This is the key issue I have, quite frankly. If you simply limited your obsession with trading Stepan to a Stepan thread, or even to threads where trade discussion was more open-ended, I don't think anyone would care that much. We'd still disagree with you, but it wouldn't be as annoying. Look at this thread. It started as a simple thread about looking into a deal involving a #6 defensemen and a couple of bottom six players. You enter the thread and immediately derail it by ignoring the point of the thread and trying to make it into ANOTHER vehicle for your crusade. You do this a LOT. It's annoying. Immensely so.

As I've said before--you seem like a good guy, and we all have our concrete views on certain players and such. But there's a fine line between feeling something strongly and being obsessed. Transforming every unrelated thread you post in into a "trade Stepan" thread borders more on the latter than the former.

underline: you and others share a dif of opinion w/me on how much to value leadership, which is correctly assumed more typically with older vets, versus better energy and potential upside with youth PLUS younger usually = cheaper, esp. long term bigger picture.

I have no prob with challenging me on my views, that is inherent to a forum,
I do ask you to recognize my right to this opinion and just let go your inappropriate anger.

bold: As to thread:
the title is Nyr-Car, and my offer was Stepan to Canes, so it is wholly appropriate on that basis alone. Further, my deal was as to Ds Pesce and Murphy, a solid add and an x factor. This did not suddenly divert from the discussion as you allege.

I stand by my comments on Stepan
we are likely better off with a premium for him
also the NMC cannot be allowed to rule

We were not good enough, brass for zib is an improvement, but not enough to stop
Stepan, McDonagh, Nash, Zuc, Klein + should be moved, but for top dollar return


Peace out

 

[GoldiFox]

Lindberg, who had a solid year in the Rangers bottom 6, has no value, yet Murphy who has yet to stick with Carolina of all teams does?

Makes a lot of sense.

Exactly. If he can't stick on one of the best U-25 D core in the league then where can he?!?

Seriously though, your ignorance is showing. The Canes already had three Rookies playing last year (Slavin, Hanifin, and Pesce) who showed that they absolutely deserve to be in the NHL. Any NHL team would be ecstatic to have any one of them playing on their team next year.

It isn't a secret that smaller Defensemen take longer to adjust to the NHL. Murphy is on a similar career track to Ryan Ellis and will get his fair shot at a full season this year. Canes are happy to wait and see what Murphy can do for them. They wouldn't have bought out James Wizniewski if they weren't.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You really do not read.

1. I wasn't talking to you. My post was a general post. I wasn't quoting or responding to anyone. It's my opinion about the OP. You responded to it.

You mentioned the Lindberg and Fast in direct response to and quoting of my post. I read just fine, thank you.

2. I could care less about what you think about anything regarding this is any matter. You responded to me. I didn't ask for or care to hear your opinion. That's why I responded with "sure..." because I clearly do not care about what you have to say.

Actually, the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less". By saying you could care less, it means you already care some, but I digress. I always love when a poster complains about someone else being on a high horse, when they are getting nose bleeds themselves. Anyhow, it's evident you care or you wouldn't keep responding. Or are you one of those posters who likes to post to a "discussion" board and don't really want any discussion? Guess what, whether you care or not, if you post something on a board, and it's a bad proposal (which yours was, regardless if it's the most you would offer), you are going to get a response. Like I said, get over it. If you don't like it, that's your problem.

3. Like I said, I don't care about his "value." I don't know what his "value" is and neither do you. I said what I said because that's the most I would give up for a guy that hasn't shown me a reason worth giving up what someone like you would want for him. So to put it in short, I don't care whether you think my offer is bad, good or bat**** crazy. It's the most I would give up for someone who I don't see having an impact with the Rangers.

And ALL my initial response said was that I'm sure you would offer that, but I'm pretty sure the Canes would never accept it and went on to explain why. It's not really complicated and not sure why you are getting so worked up about it, especially since you "don't care". Also, you posted earlier "You need to re-evaluate things from my perspective", but you refuse to do the same. Pot, meet kettle.

Don't like it? Too bad.

Sure.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The Canes can get Jensen for free when he is waivered to go to Hartford...

Exactly. On top of that, I'd be very surprised if the Canes put in a claim on Jensen when he is waived. That's my whole point. One can say Murphy has little value, which is fine, but it doesn't mean a team, the Canes, would take back a guy they don't want and don't need for a guy that has some value / role (Murphy) on their team.

 

[smoneil]

underline: you and others share a dif of opinion w/me on how much to value leadership, which is correctly assumed more typically with older vets, versus better energy and potential upside with youth PLUS younger usually = cheaper, esp. long term bigger picture.

I have no prob with challenging me on my views, that is inherent to a forum,
I do ask you to recognize my right to this opinion and just let go your inappropriate anger.

We have a difference of opinion on whether or not it's stupid to trade our best center, who is also very young, who also excels defensively, who also is on a very fair contract.

I recognize your right to your incorrect opinion. I don't have anger towards you--I have frustration towards you and it's entirely appropriate (see below).

bold: As to thread:
the title is Nyr-Car, and my offer was Stepan to Canes, so it is wholly appropriate on that basis alone. Further, my deal was as to Ds Pesce and Murphy, a solid add and an x factor. This did not suddenly divert from the discussion as you allege.

Yes, it did. It was a classic thread-jacking, and you are the Grand Theft Auto of thread-jacking. THIS was the premise of the thread:

"If Vesey signs with NYR. 3rd and fourth line players will probably be moved and I think this is good for both teams.

Lindberg/Jensen + Fast for Ryan Murphy."

The OP clearly began a thread based on the idea of exploring whether or not Carolina would be interested in swapping a #6 D for a couple of bottom 6 F.

Enter GTA Bern:

"good effort by OP, but I see Murphy more as a throw in on a larger deal than a main piece:"

Thread. Jacked.

A metaphorical parallel would be if you entered a discussion based on the idea of sharing healthy vegetable recipes, and you jumped in with:

"Good effort on these recipes, but I see vegetables as more of a side dish. Let's discuss instead recipes for T-bone steak with a couple of vegetables next to it, with a cheesecake for dessert."

Yes, the topic is still generally about food, but it's no longer about anything the OP wanted to discuss.

You do this all the time. That's where my frustration (not anger) with you comes from. I don't even want to open any NYR threads on the trade board anymore because it's a safe bet that you've twisted many of them into your quest to get rid of Stepan in some quixotic 18 move plan to turn the Rangers into "Kreider and his pre-teen supporting cast."

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Smoneil hits the nail on the head. Unfortunately, like you stated, bern doesn't ever listen to logic even though he preaches about it went trying to constantly justify his agenda.

As to Murphy, he hasn't proven enough in my eyes to give up McIlrath or Lindberg. Not that either of those pieces are all that valuable, but they've at least proven more in the NHL than Murphy has as of yet. I'd be fine giving up Jensen for him, but I don't think Carolina fans would.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Lindberg, who had a solid year in the Rangers bottom 6, has no value, yet Murphy who has yet to stick with Carolina of all teams does?

Makes a lot of sense.

He got a bunch of lucky points early on, and then was bad after that. Wasn't even making the lineup regularly late in the season. I just don't think he's very good. Not good enough offensively for the 3rd line, not good enough defensively for the fourth line. Not good on the PP, doesn't kill penalties. Wasn't even over 50% on FO's last season.

 

[Brock Anton]

You need to re-evaluate things from my perspective and get off your high horse.

The irony.