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Not this again...again. The Devils and Hucksterbeek's Financial Status

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can I ask an honest question? if it doesn't affect on ice product, why should we care?

I know that sounds cold hearted but I am just saying what most people are thinking.
 
Zajacs Bowl Cut said:
can I ask an honest question? if it doesn't affect on ice product, why should we care?

I know that sounds cold hearted but I am just saying what most people are thinking.
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Most of the time I would be inclined to agree with you, but in this case this could involve large changes in how the club operates. I.e., season ticket perks, prices, marketing events, etc. This will affect everyone, even the most causal of fans.
 
Cowbell232 said:
There's no money. We're in the "I'll gladly pay you next Tuesday for a cheeseburger today" area. Payments were missed or late or completely just won't happen - loans, employee salaries, etc. It doesn't affect on-ice operations, as that's basically where all the teams money is going, but... It's just awful.
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That's kind of what I was insinuating in my first post this morning. Whether it's a loan or an advance doesn't really matter. The fact is we had large enough cash-flow problems to necessitate an infusion of money. Throw in the Barroway loan and it looks really bad.

I can see why it is easier to hope there are no problems, rather than take a hard look and realize that things aren't quite as rosy as we want them to be. It's just human nature.

I just feel that this thread is filled with people who just want to be right (on both sides), rather than let the facts dictate the thought process, which destroys the discourse for someone like me who doesn't really know how these multi-million dollar financial dealings work.

Hopefully it all works out in the end (the sooner the better) and we can put this nonsense to rest.
 
Eric should be promoted and kept onboard.

It seems every time someone comes in and helps build and boost attendance, they are not allowed to finish their goals to the end.
 
Emperoreddy said:
Which we have established was always misleading and based on the twisting of facts to fit their narrative for page views.

It goes without saying of course there will be changes, but we aren't where the 76ers were when they were bought (if this is even going to be the new owner). The team was a mess on the court as well as off when it was bought.

The on the ice product isn't the issue here. Really the biggest issue seemed to be JVB was broke, and the debt involved with building the arena. Still you have to expect a look over and possibly changing of how PR and marketing is done with the team. With more money to invest in it, this shouldn't be a surprise and a major goal should be to eventually make it that New Jersey is as close to 100% Devils land and try to push the Rags and Flyers out. Wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of double down on helping push the immediate area around the arena up. Obviously if you can convince people that it is a safe area with lots to do, potential customers would be more likely to choose The Rock over MSG or Barcley's.

I don't see Lou being forced out or anything (though if we were in the tank for a few years that could easily change)n but I'd expect some push back on the old mystery polices and the poor fan outreach and the other old school stuff.
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We need to look at the REASONS why JVB is broke to see the answers to the later portion of your post... Why is a team that owns it's own arena and has some decent income according to Forbes, et al, not able to make payments?

There's something fundamentally wrong with the management structure or way of business, right? JVB is past the point of being able to fix it... A new owner will likely have much more vested interest in fixing it quickly - through rather large, sweeping changes.
 
Cowbell232 said:
We need to look at the REASONS why JVB is broke to see the answers to the later portion of your post... Why is a team that owns it's own arena and has some decent income according to Forbes, et al, not able to make payments?

There's something fundamentally wrong with the management structure or way of business, right? JVB is past the point of being able to fix it... A new owner will likely have much more vested interest in fixing it quickly - through rather large, sweeping changes.
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This is all my basic understanding of what happened, but totally admit I could of misread this...just trying to attempt to get this straight.

I mean isn't a lot of the problems stemming from when the arena was built at the height of the crash and operating on low revenue streams. Pile on the money JVB personally lost in Lehman (seems he definitely lost a fair amount despite when he pulled out). Then from what I gathered also the structure of the arena debt, the payment plan, interest, etc. leads to a situation that even if the arena and the team are doing reasonably well with revenue they are still in the red due to overwhelming costs.

I say that because based on attendance last year, and articles and just eye testing the acts The Rock has drawn seems to seem that the product is good and viable.
 
Emperoreddy said:
This is all my basic understanding of what happened, but totally admit I could of misread this...just trying to attempt to get this straight.

I mean isn't a lot of the problems stemming from when the arena was built at the height of the crash and operating on low revenue streams. Pile on the money JVB personally lost in Lehman (seems he definitely lost a fair amount despite when he pulled out). Then from what I gathered also the structure of the arena debt, the payment plan, interest, etc. leads to a situation that even if the arena and the team are doing reasonably well with revenue they are still in the red due to overwhelming costs.

I say that because based on attendance last year, and articles and just eye testing the acts The Rock has drawn seems to seem that the product is good and viable.
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There's still a little fundamentally missing here... JVB personal finances isn't really relevant I think. The problem is that the team itself seems like it should be making money, right? But why aren't they? That's the interesting part... What is happening internally to prevent that? Is it bad management? Bad attendance? Bad teams? Etc.
 
Cowbell232 said:
There's still a little fundamentally missing here... JVB personal finances isn't really relevant I think. The problem is that the team itself seems like it should be making money, right? But why aren't they? That's the interesting part... What is happening internally to prevent that? Is it bad management? Bad attendance? Bad teams? Etc.
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That is what confuses me too. I think one could look to the fact that attendance was never that great for the first few years there despite the on ice product (the team was making the playoffs consistently). It has obviously improved even with missing the playoffs, but half a season of great attendance doesn't erase years of bad to mediocre attendance.

The big money makers when it comes to seats and attendance from what I understand is suites, and those are ghost towns from what I read. That is where the money is made apparently (and why with brand new stadiums seats are removed for more suites). Imagine the lower bowl seats too, I know a lot of those empty seats are people up in the bar area, but not all of them and any team needs its premium seats to be sold.

My opinion is the on ice product can't really be faulted for attendance issues, especially with things like the suites. So I'd look at bad management. Bad PR, bad sales, and bad marketing. Not properly looking into new areas to expand and sell the product. Part of that is selling the game of hockey as a whole and the two lockouts hurt everyone, but then convincing people our hockey product is better then the three others in the same market.
 
Cowbell232 said:
I haven't talked to sales recently, but I'd imagine from job listings I've seen, this is accurate. He was great externally, but not as great internally...
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He did all the right things as far as growing a season ticket base.

He will be missed and replacement will have tough shoes to fill.

I was hoping he would be around a few more years as in my experience he actually got it, unlike most of the folks in the ticket dept for the last few decades.
 
Eric helped me out a lot. Gonna miss him. Hopefully Christian Herr, my rep doesn't go anywhere. He's awesome.
 
Emperoreddy said:
That is what confuses me too. I think one could look to the fact that attendance was never that great for the first few years there despite the on ice product (the team was making the playoffs consistently). It has obviously improved even with missing the playoffs, but half a season of great attendance doesn't erase years of bad to mediocre attendance.

The big money makers when it comes to seats and attendance from what I understand is suites, and those are ghost towns from what I read. That is where the money is made apparently (and why with brand new stadiums seats are removed for more suites). Imagine the lower bowl seats too, I know a lot of those empty seats are people up in the bar area, but not all of them and any team needs its premium seats to be sold.

My opinion is the on ice product can't really be faulted for attendance issues, especially with things like the suites. So I'd look at bad management. Bad PR, bad sales, and bad marketing. Not properly looking into new areas to expand and sell the product. Part of that is selling the game of hockey as a whole and the two lockouts hurt everyone, but then convincing people our hockey product is better then the three others in the same market.
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But who is overseeing the PR, sales, marketing, etc. right now? Who really is holding the control/power of everything?
 
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There's always listings sales sales in every sport and every team. It's a stupid job that no one wants and the turnover is high.

And there's no way paychecks were missed. If that were the case the league would have taken the team over at that spot immediately.
 
Emperoreddy said:
That is what confuses me too. I think one could look to the fact that attendance was never that great for the first few years there despite the on ice product (the team was making the playoffs consistently). It has obviously improved even with missing the playoffs, but half a season of great attendance doesn't erase years of bad to mediocre attendance.

The big money makers when it comes to seats and attendance from what I understand is suites, and those are ghost towns from what I read. That is where the money is made apparently (and why with brand new stadiums seats are removed for more suites). Imagine the lower bowl seats too, I know a lot of those empty seats are people up in the bar area, but not all of them and any team needs its premium seats to be sold.

My opinion is the on ice product can't really be faulted for attendance issues, especially with things like the suites. So I'd look at bad management. Bad PR, bad sales, and bad marketing. Not properly looking into new areas to expand and sell the product. Part of that is selling the game of hockey as a whole and the two lockouts hurt everyone, but then convincing people our hockey product is better then the three others in the same market.
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Lack of any real playoff runs aside from 2012 hurts as well. U hear so often that these teams don't really make much $$$. But the playoffs is pure gravy, in line of $1 mil a game.
 
DatBoyJPP said:
There's always listings sales sales in every sport and every team. It's a stupid job that no one wants and the turnover is high.

And there's no way paychecks were missed. If that were the case the league would have taken the team over at that spot immediately.
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Not at that high of a level... But the turnover is of course very high.

And if employees were DAE, and not the Devils, what could the league do again?
 
Cowbell232 said:
But who is overseeing the PR, sales, marketing, etc. right now? Who really is holding the control/power of everything?
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I have no clue, seems you know better then I, but I guess the problem no one within the organization really knows either. Obviously these are things that are, or damn well should be outside of Lou's control.

I mean there has to be some sort of management structure that answers to someone that answers to the owner.
 
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Cowbell232 said:
Most of the time I would be inclined to agree with you, but in this case this could involve large changes in how the club operates. I.e., season ticket perks, prices, marketing events, etc. This will affect everyone, even the most causal of fans.
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I'm very curious about what these changes could be. I mean it sounds like Harris is big on lowering prices to pack the arena and make customers happy (which I totally agree with, especially for hockey where the in-game experience is addicting).

But you're also saying that the team's current operations could be losing money, so do they do away with many STH perks that have helped drive sales the last few years?

I also felt like Jeff did a good job marketing with Jersey's Team, the social media push, viewing parties, STH events, the open forum tour he ran a few season back, etc.. A lot stuff that nearly every other team in this area doesn't do.. What areas were we lacking in that can be improved? My only thought is marketing certain players more, but Lou would retire if Harris pushed for that
 
DatBoyJPP said:
There's always listings sales sales in every sport and every team. It's a stupid job that no one wants and the turnover is high.

And there's no way paychecks were missed. If that were the case the league would have taken the team over at that spot immediately.
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I also question the "players know it" angle as well. I mean why sign here if that is the case? Oh I can sign with a team on the verge of bankruptcy and might move to Quebec? What are we waiting for?

Sure they understand we are not the Rangers, or the leafs, but players in on "devils situation is awful" I'm skeptical.
 
Cowbell232 said:
Not at that high of a level... But the turnover is of course very high.

And if employees were DAE, and not the Devils, what could the league do again?
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The Red Bulls had 13 sales people when I started before the 2012 season. 2 made it to the playoff game. Sales is a 12 month cycle job.

They could still intervene. And if people really were missing checks there would be lawsuits in the news.
 
Cowbell232 said:
But who is overseeing the PR, sales, marketing, etc. right now? Who really is holding the control/power of everything?


He certainly seemed to do the right things, right? But he promised a lot of things to a lot of people that weren't really possible. He often makes/made his employees upset by making them deal the problems he created - that's not a good way to do business.

He was great to the people, but internally? What a headache.
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Rich K? Jeff? Lou?

Eric did a kickass job as far as I am concerned as a season ticket holder.
He will be sorely missed by many many fans if he has in fact moved on.
 
Colin226 said:
I'm very curious about what these changes could be. I mean it sounds like Harris is big on lowering prices to pack the arena and make customers happy (which I totally agree with, especially for hockey where the in-game experience is addicting).

But you're also saying that the team's current operations could be losing money, so do they do away with many STH perks that have helped drive sales the last few years?

I also felt like Jeff did a good job marketing with Jersey's Team, the social media push, viewing parties, STH events, the open forum tour he ran a few season back, etc.. A lot stuff that nearly every other team in this area doesn't do.. What areas were we lacking in that can be improved? My only thought is marketing certain players more, but Lou would retire if Harris pushed for that
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Do people really buy season tickets for the perks? Or do they buy them to get a sweet deal on per ticket price and to see a good product? I mean unless we are counting 1st dibs on playoff tickets, I don't see the perks as big drivers. Nor do I see those perks as costing a bunch of $$$.
 
devilsblood said:
Do people really buy season tickets for the perks? Or do they buy them to get a sweet deal on per ticket price and to see a good product? I mean unless we are counting 1st dibs on playoff tickets, I don't see the perks as big drivers. Nor do I see those perks as costing a bunch of $$$.
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I would think the perks are something to get someone over the mental hump while they are realizing they don't have to go every time the Panthers, Lightning, Blue Jackets, and Coyotes are in town and can save money with the secret code deals that are out there.
 
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