Norris Trophy Tournament (1993-Present) Round 1: 2019 Mark Giordano vs 2017 Brent Burns

[blundluntman]

MATCHUP #5 (Round 1): Mark Giordano (2019) vs Brent Burns (2017)

Mark Giordano (2018-19):

Games Played	Goals	Assists	Points	Minutes Per Game	Other Stats	Awards/Honors
78	17	57	74	24:14	+39, 73 Takeaways, 65 Giveaways, 144 Blocked Shots, 58 Hits, 52.2 xGA	Norris Trophy, 1st AST, 9th in Hart

Brent Burns (2016-17):

Games Played	Goals	Assists	Points	Minutes Per Game	Other Stats	Awards/Honors
82	29	47	76	24:52	+21, 52 Takeaways, 153 Giveaways, 142 Blocked Shots, 69 Hits, 58.3 xGA	Norris Trophy, 1st AST, 4th in Hart

Round 1 Matchups
24 Hughes vs 20 Josi (Still Active) Thread
23 Karlsson vs 95 Coffey (Still Active) Thread
22 Makar vs 04 Niedermayer (Still Active) Thread
21 Fox vs 97 Leetch (Still Active) Thread
19 Giordano vs 17 Burns
18 Hedman vs 12 Karlsson
16 Doughty vs 03 Lidstrom
15 Karlsson vs 10 Keith
14 Keith vs 07 Lidstrom
13 Subban vs 94 Bourque
09 Chara vs 00 Pronger
08 Lidstrom vs 93 Chelios
06 Lidstrom vs 96 Chelios
02 Lidstrom vs 01 Lidstrom
99 MacIniss vs 98 Blake

Note: Couldn't find advanced metrics for any seasons prior to 2009 so please try your best not to solely rely on them to evaluate players in discussions.

Click to read more...

 

[Regal]

Two very different seasons. I feel like Gio was the better “defenseman” in the traditional sense, and probably the better option on a great team, but I think Burns’ year was more impressive, and had a higher impact relative to his team (hence the Hart finish). Gio dominated the voting, but Burns was also going up against on of Karlsson’s best years and he dominated a very strong year from Hedman (both of which were probably better than Gio’s runner up, who was actually Burns).

Offensively they look close, but offense really started to take off in Gio’s year, and the Flames were a team where everything was going right for them, while San Jose was the opposite, including Thornton massively regressing overnight. The Flames were 2nd in the league in goals with 289, while the Sharks were 19th with 219. Gio was also 5th on the Flames in points, 25 behind Gaudreau, while Burns led the Sharks in points by 8 and tied with Pavelski for the team lead in goals. Burns also had significantly more primary points (56 to 42) and finished 9th in the league in points, while Gio was tied for 38th.

Burns’ first 3/4 of the season also stood out. He was in Hart talks and near the top of the league in points, and looked like he might challenge for 40 goals. This is what the scoring leaders looked like at the end of February:

Gio was obviously the much better defensive player, but Burns wasn’t terrible and his ability to push play meant he also tilted the ice to similarly large extent.

Here’s how their GAR numbers and RAPM charts play out

Burns

Giordano

They actually ended up with fairly similar 5v5 GF% despite Calgary being a better team (60.8% for Gio and 59.5% for Burns).

Again, I do think Gio’s safer play and all around game makes him the better option for a good team, but there was something special about that Burns year given how the forwards played, and I’m going with it here.

 

[blundluntman]

Two very different seasons. I feel like Gio was the better “defenseman” in the traditional sense, and probably the better option on a great team, but I think Burns’ year was more impressive, and had a higher impact relative to his team (hence the Hart finish). Gio dominated the voting, but Burns was also going up against on of Karlsson’s best years and he dominated a very strong year from Hedman (both of which were probably better than Gio’s runner up, who was actually Burns).

Offensively they look close, but offense really started to take off in Gio’s year, and the Flames were a team where everything was going right for them, while San Jose was the opposite, including Thornton massively regressing overnight. The Flames were 2nd in the league in goals with 289, while the Sharks were 19th with 219. Gio was also 5th on the Flames in points, 25 behind Gaudreau, while Burns led the Sharks in points by 8 and tied with Pavelski for the team lead in goals. Burns also had significantly more primary points (56 to 42) and finished 9th in the league in points, while Gio was tied for 38th.

Burns’ first 3/4 of the season also stood out. He was in Hart talks and near the top of the league in points, and looked like he might challenge for 40 goals. This is what the scoring leaders looked like at the end of February:

View attachment 946732

Gio was obviously the much better defensive player, but Burns wasn’t terrible and his ability to push play meant he also tilted the ice to similarly large extent.

Here’s how their GAR numbers and RAPM charts play out

Burns
View attachment 946733
View attachment 946735

Giordano
View attachment 946734

View attachment 946736

They actually ended up with fairly similar 5v5 GF% despite Calgary being a better team (60.8% for Gio and 59.5% for Burns).

Again, I do think Gio’s safer play and all around game makes him the better option for a good team, but there was something special about that Burns year given how the forwards played, and I’m going with it here.

Went with Giordano but Burns does make sense when you consider everything at play. I've had a few tricky polls in this series based on the semantics concerning whether a player "deserved" the trophy so to say (especially with the Norris since it's for defensemen), but at the end of the day, it all comes back to overall impact on the game. I'd definitely prefer Gio over Burns defensively but you can definitely argue Burns was still more impactful.

 

[wetcoast]

Two very different seasons. I feel like Gio was the better “defenseman” in the traditional sense, and probably the better option on a great team, but I think Burns’ year was more impressive, and had a higher impact relative to his team (hence the Hart finish). Gio dominated the voting, but Burns was also going up against on of Karlsson’s best years and he dominated a very strong year from Hedman (both of which were probably better than Gio’s runner up, who was actually Burns).

Offensively they look close, but offense really started to take off in Gio’s year, and the Flames were a team where everything was going right for them, while San Jose was the opposite, including Thornton massively regressing overnight. The Flames were 2nd in the league in goals with 289, while the Sharks were 19th with 219. Gio was also 5th on the Flames in points, 25 behind Gaudreau, while Burns led the Sharks in points by 8 and tied with Pavelski for the team lead in goals. Burns also had significantly more primary points (56 to 42) and finished 9th in the league in points, while Gio was tied for 38th.

Burns’ first 3/4 of the season also stood out. He was in Hart talks and near the top of the league in points, and looked like he might challenge for 40 goals. This is what the scoring leaders looked like at the end of February:

View attachment 946732

Gio was obviously the much better defensive player, but Burns wasn’t terrible and his ability to push play meant he also tilted the ice to similarly large extent.

Here’s how their GAR numbers and RAPM charts play out

Burns
View attachment 946733
View attachment 946735

Giordano
View attachment 946734

View attachment 946736

They actually ended up with fairly similar 5v5 GF% despite Calgary being a better team (60.8% for Gio and 59.5% for Burns).

Again, I do think Gio’s safer play and all around game makes him the better option for a good team, but there was something special about that Burns year given how the forwards played, and I’m going with it here.

Great post and I tend to agree but have to wonder what if Gio hadn't been injured in 13-14 when he was an absolute stud on a really crappy Flames team but then gets injured and was in his peak still?

 

[banks]

Went with Giordano, but it was pretty much a coin flip in my head. I love both players.

 

[Rowlet]

Really close, probably the closest matchup.

I went with Giordano, for me he was far and away the strongest defenseman that year, I think Burns absolutely deserved his win, but there was an argument that existed for Karlsson too, he had 63 1st place votes. while Giordano was the only choice that year.

 

[ESH]

Giordano blew Burns away in voting in 2019, was 2019 Burns really any worse than 2017?

Giordano was a beast all over the ice.

 

[Felidae]

Giordano blew Burns away in voting in 2019, was 2019 Burns really any worse than 2017?

Giordano was a beast all over the ice.

I mean, offensively, yeah.

He was 22nd in scoring in 2019. He was 9th in 2017

Not to mention the team was worse offensively in 2017 were they ranked 19th in GA, in 2019 they were 2nd.

If Burns finished top 10 in scoring in 2019, that would be around 95-98 points. I doubt Giordano wins by such a landslide, if at all

 

[Regal]

Giordano blew Burns away in voting in 2019, was 2019 Burns really any worse than 2017?

Giordano was a beast all over the ice.

Quite a bit yea. 13 fewer goals, all at ES. Much more team support, and wasn’t nearly as strong relative to league scoring. Burns was only a bit better than Gio offensively in ‘19, which made Gio an easy win since he was the second highest scoring defenseman while being great defensively as well. It was a much larger offensive difference in ‘17.

Here’s Burns’ GAR and regression numbers both years were much different

Burns was close to Karlsson but beat out a very strong two way year from Hedman by a similar amount that Gio won by. Norris voting is also very much driven by external factors. Burns having won before likely affects voting, as does team success.

Really close, probably the closest matchup.

I went with Giordano, for me he was far and away the strongest defenseman that year, I think Burns absolutely deserved his win, but there was an argument that existed for Karlsson too, he had 63 1st place votes. while Giordano was the only choice that year.

I still don’t understand the reasoning behind comparing the dominance of wins when competition is different every year.

 

[Rowlet]

I still don’t understand the reasoning behind comparing the dominance of wins when competition is different every year.

I value dominance over competition in winning years because some of these head to head match-ups are across generations and there's no way to accurately compare them, except for against their peers.