Non-Sharks NorCal Sports Thread XXVI

[Pinkfloyd]

Could also blame Sabean, possibly. They knew near the TDL that the bullpen had issues. How does the season play out if the Giants acquire Chapman instead of the Cubs doing so?

That's a fair point. I think they knew they had bullpen issues which is why they got Smith in the first place but may not have had the pieces to get Chapman.

Kaep restructured and is playing, man he must really want out from under the yolk of Baalke/York. He is throwing away assured money for what I assume is to audition for other teams and get that Brock Osweiler money.


People keep ******** on Chip but I feel like hes a kid listening to parents yelling (Baalke/York)

Kaep is taking a gamble on himself to not let a contract dictate whether he should be playing or not. I'll credit him for taking that shot and hopefully he pulls through. As for Kelly, you're probably right but he's still not a good coach in the NFL. Hopefully, Kaep can make better use out of his offense than Gabbert did but with Kelly tends to call in situations that are critical, I have my doubts.

 

[sjsharks92]

I agree the team doesn't deserve to win the WS but it is still Bochy's fault because he made the wrong choices when going to the bullpen. You can take Moore out of that game at that point but you either start with Smith or Romo and let it go. Playing the matchup game in the 9th didn't help anyone he chose and he picked wrong even in that scenario because Law as a rook in an elimination game save situation shouldn't be there. Lopez has been pretty crappy all year and shouldn't have been in there either. Going to Romo with runners on when not going to him to start the inning was already a signal of lack of faith. He went to Smith way too late in the situation. Yeah the pen has been pretty trash but it was still workable if the coach uses the pitchers appropriately. Boch didn't do that and it helped cost the team that game.

I agree that those guys all should be gone. They may need to chase after someone like Jansen or Melancon if possible or else they're going to have to take a shot on someone internally like Strickland or Law or maybe even Cain. Then they need to figure out what they want to do with Posey in regards to getting him out from behind the plate and what that is going to mean for everyone else.

While it's fair to say that Bochy going for the matchups didn't work, I disagree with saying he made the wrong choices. Law had been our best reliever for weeks leading up to that game (which isn't saying much), while Romo had blown the save the night before. I do agree that Strickland would've been a good choice though. Ultimately, it didn't matter who Bochy turned to because all of them looked bad in that inning.

 

[sjsharks92]

I agree the team doesn't deserve to win the WS but it is still Bochy's fault because he made the wrong choices when going to the bullpen. You can take Moore out of that game at that point but you either start with Smith or Romo and let it go. Playing the matchup game in the 9th didn't help anyone he chose and he picked wrong even in that scenario because Law as a rook in an elimination game save situation shouldn't be there. Lopez has been pretty crappy all year and shouldn't have been in there either. Going to Romo with runners on when not going to him to start the inning was already a signal of lack of faith. He went to Smith way too late in the situation. Yeah the pen has been pretty trash but it was still workable if the coach uses the pitchers appropriately. Boch didn't do that and it helped cost the team that game.

I agree that those guys all should be gone. They may need to chase after someone like Jansen or Melancon if possible or else they're going to have to take a shot on someone internally like Strickland or Law or maybe even Cain. Then they need to figure out what they want to do with Posey in regards to getting him out from behind the plate and what that is going to mean for everyone else.

Kenley Jansen would cost a fortune. I think Dodgers retain him anyways but I do think Melancon would be an excellent option. Cain as closer is a horrendous idea. He doesn't have the stuff to be a #5 starter anymore, let alone the guy to bring in to close out a game. Truthfully I don't think there's a roster spot on this team for him next season. Thankfully his contract is up at the end of next season, just in time to give Bumgarner a mega-deal.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

While it's fair to say that Bochy going for the matchups didn't work, I disagree with saying he made the wrong choices. Law had been our best reliever for weeks leading up to that game (which isn't saying much), while Romo had blown the save the night before. I do agree that Strickland would've been a good choice though. Ultimately, it didn't matter who Bochy turned to because all of them looked bad in that inning.

Law had been great but he wasn't their best going into that. Smith was and Law as a rookie opening the 9th is a huge gamble that didn't need to be taken. What mattered was picking one and sticking to it because when he went to the well repeatedly, he was showing panic and the players probably knew it. They'll still say it's on them to get the job done which it is but Boch needed to handle that better and be smarter about it. Smith was their best option going into that 9th and he needed to show some faith in whoever he picked to get the job done instead of yanking them after one batter or two.

Kenley Jansen would cost a fortune. I think Dodgers retain him anyways but I do think Melancon would be an excellent option. Cain as closer is a horrendous idea. He doesn't have the stuff to be a #5 starter anymore, let alone the guy to bring in to close out a game. Truthfully I don't think there's a roster spot on this team for him next season. Thankfully his contract is up at the end of next season, just in time to give Bumgarner a mega-deal.

They won't have much of a choice in terms of closer options on the market. As for Cain, they're going to have to do something with him. Not having the stuff to be a starter anymore doesn't mean you can't close a game. That's essentially how Rod Beck became a closer and it's how a lot of guys in history became a closer was because they couldn't start anymore. If they can't afford to bring in a closer, they're going to have to look internally and Cain is going to have to be in the bullpen somewhere with the rotation pretty much locked up next year.

 

[sjsharks92]

They won't have much of a choice in terms of closer options on the market. As for Cain, they're going to have to do something with him. Not having the stuff to be a starter anymore doesn't mean you can't close a game. That's essentially how Rod Beck became a closer and it's how a lot of guys in history became a closer was because they couldn't start anymore. If they can't afford to bring in a closer, they're going to have to look internally and Cain is going to have to be in the bullpen somewhere with the rotation pretty much locked up next year.

The difference with Cain though is he doesn't have the stuff anymore. The fastball is flat and lifeless, not to mention it tops out at 90-91mph. His breaking stuff doesn't have enough movement and given how feeble his fastball is hitters wouldn't need to be afraid of his secondary stuff anyways.

Look at the best closers in baseball. Heck, the best setup guys even. Chapman, Miller, Jansen, Betances, Britton. What they all have in common is velocity on the fastball (95+) and secondary pitches with ridiculous movement. Cain's got none of that and as I said in the previous post, despite all the money the Giants owe him in 2017, I really doubt we see him make more than a small handful of appearances next season. Just because he's owed a lot of money does not mean the Giants have to, or even should put him on the 25-man roster, let alone in the most important bullpen role.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Law had been great but he wasn't their best going into that. Smith was and Law as a rookie opening the 9th is a huge gamble that didn't need to be taken. What mattered was picking one and sticking to it because when he went to the well repeatedly, he was showing panic and the players probably knew it. They'll still say it's on them to get the job done which it is but Boch needed to handle that better and be smarter about it. Smith was their best option going into that 9th and he needed to show some faith in whoever he picked to get the job done instead of yanking them after one batter or two.

Bochy's mishandling of Smith was arguably his biggest blunder this season.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The difference with Cain though is he doesn't have the stuff anymore. The fastball is flat and lifeless, not to mention it tops out at 90-91mph. His breaking stuff doesn't have enough movement and given how feeble his fastball is hitters wouldn't need to be afraid of his secondary stuff anyways.

Look at the best closers in baseball. Heck, the best setup guys even. Chapman, Miller, Jansen, Betances, Britton. What they all have in common is velocity on the fastball (95+) and secondary pitches with ridiculous movement. Cain's got none of that and as I said in the previous post, despite all the money the Giants owe him in 2017, I really doubt we see him make more than a small handful of appearances next season. Just because he's owed a lot of money does not mean the Giants have to, or even should put him on the 25-man roster, let alone in the most important bullpen role.

You don't really need any of that to be an effective closer. Command is the most important thing needed to succeed in the role. I don't disagree but his fastball's effectiveness still comes down to the fact that his arm hasn't been right. If that miraculously changes, he'll have a decent case to make for the spot just like there is a decent argument for Kontos, Law, Strickland, and Smith to make. If they can't fork over the money needed to bring in a proven commodity for the spot, they're going to have to open it up to what they have and see who wins out. Cain is going to be one of those guys in the mix if he's healthy simply because there isn't a spot in the rotation for him anymore and they aren't going to trade him nor send him down.

 

[sjsharks92]

Bochy's mishandling of Smith was arguably his biggest blunder this season.

I would agree with that. Smith looked really good for us down the stretch and I think Bochy should've been more assertive in making it clear that he was the guy coming out of the pen. I think with a little more established roles, some of these guys would've done better.

Regardless, this bullpen was a mess from the start and not enough was done to fix it. Hopefully the Giants rebuild it this offseason like they did with the rotation last year.

 

[sjsharks92]

You don't really need any of that to be an effective closer. Command is the most important thing needed to succeed in the role. I don't disagree but his fastball's effectiveness still comes down to the fact that his arm hasn't been right. If that miraculously changes, he'll have a decent case to make for the spot just like there is a decent argument for Kontos, Law, Strickland, and Smith to make. If they can't fork over the money needed to bring in a proven commodity for the spot, they're going to have to open it up to what they have and see who wins out. Cain is going to be one of those guys in the mix if he's healthy simply because there isn't a spot in the rotation for him anymore and they aren't going to trade him nor send him down.

Cain's arm isn't ever going to be "right" again. His body is worn out. Between 2006-2013 (his age 21-28 seasons) he never threw fewer than 190 IPs. The last 3 season's he has been ineffective on the rare occasion he's been healthy enough to pitch at all. Age won't fix that. You've got to accept that 2017 Matt Cain, is essentially the same player that 2012 Barry Zito was. Maybe, and it's a big maybe, he'll have some opportunities to play when injuries arise. But otherwise, you're looking at a guy who will make an occasional spot start and perhaps some long relief duty in garbage games.

The only way Matt Cain closes a game next season is if the Giants don't sign a single new reliever, the entire bullpen is injured or used up, and Cain isn't injured himself or hasn't proven to be a complete negative value player by that point. If all of those things happen, then yes Cain may find himself in a save situation next season.

Also, I'm not sure what version of baseball you've been watching where closers don't need to have filthy stuff to be dominant at their trade. Definitely not the same game I've watched the last 20+ years.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Matt Cain is my favorite Giant of all time, but he's done.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Cain's arm isn't ever going to be "right" again. His body is worn out. Between 2006-2013 (his age 21-28 seasons) he never threw fewer than 190 IPs. The last 3 season's he has been ineffective on the rare occasion he's been healthy enough to pitch at all. Age won't fix that. You've got to accept that 2017 Matt Cain, is essentially the same player that 2012 Barry Zito was. Maybe, and it's a big maybe, he'll have some opportunities to play when injuries arise. But otherwise, you're looking at a guy who will make an occasional spot start and perhaps some long relief duty in garbage games.

The only way Matt Cain closes a game next season is if the Giants don't sign a single new reliever, the entire bullpen is injured or used up, and Cain isn't injured himself or hasn't proven to be a complete negative value player by that point. If all of those things happen, then yes Cain may find himself in a save situation next season.

Also, I'm not sure what version of baseball you've been watching where closers don't need to have filthy stuff to be dominant at their trade. Definitely not the same game I've watched the last 20+ years.

I'm not saying Cain is going to be healthy or that he's going to get that spot. I'm saying he's going to get a shot at it if they don't sign a proven closer. He's going to be at least given that opportunity like everyone else that's an arm outside the rotation. It's up to him at that point so I'm not closing the book on it entirely like you are. You're right that he's not what he used to be and it's likely not going to happen but he'll be given a shot because the Giants don't really have much of an option.

As for what version of baseball, thanks for the condescending tone by the way, there are numerous examples of effective closers that didn't have 95+ MPH and ridiculous movement on their secondary pitches whatever that's supposed to mean. I mean, we did just have Romo not too long ago be an effective closer w/o having a 95+ MPH fastball. His ridiculous movement on his slider doesn't mean anything w/o command of it which is really the heart of that side of things.

 

[sjsharks92]

I'm not saying Cain is going to be healthy or that he's going to get that spot. I'm saying he's going to get a shot at it if they don't sign a proven closer. He's going to be at least given that opportunity like everyone else that's an arm outside the rotation. It's up to him at that point so I'm not closing the book on it entirely like you are. You're right that he's not what he used to be and it's likely not going to happen but he'll be given a shot because the Giants don't really have much of an option.

As for what version of baseball, thanks for the condescending tone by the way, there are numerous examples of effective closers that didn't have 95+ MPH and ridiculous movement on their secondary pitches whatever that's supposed to mean. I mean, we did just have Romo not too long ago be an effective closer w/o having a 95+ MPH fastball. His ridiculous movement on his slider doesn't mean anything w/o command of it which is really the heart of that side of things.

To address your second paragraph there, Romo is a completely different case. Romo's command was indeed a big part of why he was an effective closer for a period of time. The command on his slider was excellent but above all it had amongst the best movement of any single pitch in baseball. Hitters knew it was coming and still couldn't hit it.

Cain no longer has the same command or deception he once did, but even if he did, what pitch of Cain's is good enough at this point that hitters won't be able to hit? Cain was once a great pitcher because his command was superb, he was deceptive with his pitches and he could throw strikes with 4 or 5 different pitches at a time, all of which had just enough velocity or movement to be effective. Cain no longer has very good command, he's been tipping off pitches for years, and nothing in his repertoire is reliable or difficult to hit. That's a recipe for a simulated game or batting practice pitcher, not a closer.

As for your first paragraph, I don't bet on baseball because it's too unpredictable, but if I did I'd bet on Cain not closing a game. If Cain is ever given an opportunity to close a game next season it will mean that the Giants are in tank mode/heartwarming send-off mode for him and the fans. The list of names who will be given the opportunity to close ahead of Cain next season is a very long one.

EDIT: Didn't mean to be condescending. Just don't understand the logic behind Matt Cain as a closer.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

To address your second paragraph there, Romo is a completely different case. Romo's command was indeed a big part of why he was an effective closer for a period of time. The command on his slider was excellent but above all it had amongst the best movement of any single pitch in baseball. Hitters knew it was coming and still couldn't hit it.

Cain no longer has the same command or deception he once did, but even if he did, what pitch of Cain's is good enough at this point that hitters won't be able to hit? Cain was once a great pitcher because his command was superb, he was deceptive with his pitches and he could throw strikes with 4 or 5 different pitches at a time, all of which had just enough velocity or movement to be effective. Cain no longer has very good command, he's been tipping off pitches for years, and nothing in his repertoire is reliable or difficult to hit. That's a recipe for a simulated game or batting practice pitcher, not a closer.

As for your first paragraph, I don't bet on baseball because it's too unpredictable, but if I did I'd bet on Cain not closing a game. If Cain is ever given an opportunity to close a game next season it will mean that the Giants are in tank mode/heartwarming send-off mode for him and the fans. The list of names who will be given the opportunity to close ahead of Cain next season is a very long one.

EDIT: Didn't mean to be condescending. Just don't understand the logic behind Matt Cain as a closer.

The point though is that it takes command more than anything else to be an effective closer. It doesn't really matter what kind of stuff you have. A guy with average stuff in the big leagues but is able to pinpoint his pitches where it needs to be, is going to be an effective closer. Again, I've never said that Cain is a good bet for anything. I'm just saying that he will compete for the spot to start spring training like everyone else if they don't sign a proven closer. It will be an open competition to start. Nobody will be given an opportunity to close ahead of Cain. Whoever gets it will need to earn it. All the logic is really saying is that there is no spot in the rotation and if the Giants don't sign a proven closer, they will have to have an open competition for the job and Cain's name will be in that mix.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Nationals choke again... sorry, Giants fans.

 

[ADifferentTim]

Nationals choke again... sorry, Giants fans.

Time to update this DC motto: "First in war, first in peace, and..."

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The 49ers are getting closer to becoming the only NFL team in Northern California come 2019.

So, with the 49ers no longer physically playing in San Francisco, I'd like the team to become the "NorCal 49ers" come 2019 (if the Vegas thing for the Raiders becomes official), and aggressively market themselves in the Northern half of the state. All that's missing, is a QB who grew up in NorCal rooting for the 49ers - all the good ones (Goff, Brady, Rodgers) play on other teams.

 

[sjsharks92]

The 49ers are getting closer to becoming the only NFL team in Northern California come 2019.

So, with the 49ers no longer physically playing in San Francisco, I'd like the team to become the "NorCal 49ers" come 2019 (if the Vegas thing for the Raiders becomes official), and aggressively market themselves in the Northern half of the state. All that's missing, is a QB who grew up in NorCal rooting for the 49ers - all the good ones (Goff, Brady, Rodgers) play on other teams.

I really hope the Raiders stay and build a beautiful new stadium to embarrass Jed. They'd have a better team and a better venue.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

What a surprise that Kelly would go conservative on 3rd down.

 

[Grave]

Those parking lot videos of bills fans are disgusting.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Those parking lot videos of bills fans are disgusting.

What do you expect from trash fans?

If the defense could actually stop the run, sf has a chance.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Niners letting another get away from them. Same issues really. Not enough talent anywhere and not good enough coaching to compensate for it. Offense can't sustain drives because receivers drop balls, they can't run consistently, and they don't make good play calls on 3rd down really. Kap's had some poorly thrown balls too. Defense couldn't get off the field on 3rd down but the second half they got wore out. It's just sad but it was funny to see the crowd pop when Kap got sacked and break out the old Hacksaw Duggan USA chants. lol

 

[hohosaregood]

Those parking lot videos of bills fans are disgusting.

Thought you were exaggerating but there are a lot of videos of bills fans in parking lots on the internet. A Lot.

 

[Lebanezer]

Niners letting another get away from them. Same issues really. Not enough talent anywhere and not good enough coaching to compensate for it. Offense can't sustain drives because receivers drop balls, they can't run consistently, and they don't make good play calls on 3rd down really. Kap's had some poorly thrown balls too. Defense couldn't get off the field on 3rd down but the second half they got wore out. It's just sad but it was funny to see the crowd pop when Kap got sacked and break out the old Hacksaw Duggan USA chants. lol

I didn't watch the game, but I saw the highlight of Kap's touchdown to Smith, and that was a terrible throw. Fortunately there was no one near him so he could make a play.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Thought you were exaggerating but there are a lot of videos of bills fans in parking lots on the internet. A Lot.

Same could be said about pretty much any tailgating-heavy fanbase, Niners included.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I didn't watch the game, but I saw the highlight of Kap's touchdown to Smith, and that was a terrible throw. Fortunately there was no one near him so he could make a play.

On plays where the wr is that open, you just get the ball there. Gabbert has had that same play and thrown the ball 30 yards over the wr's head. Torrey Smith will score 1-on-1 in space against a safety 100 times out of 100.