News Article: No, William Nylander is not better than Mitch Marner, under any circumstances

[Gabriel426]

That's one of the most dysfunctional things I've ever read on a hockey forum.

I was being sarcastic

 

[ACC1224]

That's one of the most dysfunctional things I've ever read on a hockey forum.

The Nylander pump up brigade seems to have been out in full force overnight, not sure where all their desperation comes from?
It's really weird.

 

[Hellcat]

I think people whisper “Selke” a lot around Marner and it’s overstated.

If we recognize Selke nominees are usually centers and it is unusual to have a winger receive votes, it's not overstated at all. Marner has for the last 6 years received votes, what is more unusual is to to see a winger in the top 5 in votes, in 2022-23, Marner, a winger, received the 3rd most votes, receiving more votes than elite defensive forward Kopitar (Selke winner), Barkov (Selke winner), Ryan O'Rielly (Selke winner), the last time a winger won the award was 2002-03. Selke votes merely indicate that you have been recognized for your defensive abilities, not sure how you can over state recognition. End of the day he is a high end defensive forward. For that matter Matthews is also a high end defensive forward but does not get the love for his play without the puck that he deserves.

 

[Hellcat]

Its really funny how offended some feel whenever a ranking showed MM is not better than Willie.

Can we all just agree that MM is NOT the best player in the league and didn't had a great season last year. There are also quite a few players who are just better than MM esp using last season stats.
This concept also applies to every player in the league except for McDavid.
Like if Kuch gets 85pts this coming season while playing 70 games or more, I am pretty sure he won't be rank in the top 5 PLAYERS in the league like he is today. Same with AM, if he only scores 58goals and 95pts while McD, Mack, Drai, Barkov, Point and even Sid got better stats than him, AM won't be consider a top 5 C in the league next season unless he wins the Conn Symthe and win the Cup for the Leafs in the playoffs.

All these MM is better than Willie is really petty. Both of them won NOTHING in terms of personal accolades or team awards(NO CUP). Both of them are just good or great players in the league where they are all very replaceable esp if you put salary into that equation.
Pretty much most on that top 20 list can fill their roles with the Leafs plus a few more that is not on that list.

Fair post, players performance is fluid season over season, Just because you score 140 one year does not mean you are the best in the next year. Unless you are Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid. Certain guys just have the cheat code, Kucherov even with an off year is probably in the McDavid category, maybe a notch below McDavid.

The Nylander pump up brigade seems to have been out in full force overnight, not sure where all their desperation comes from?
It's really weird.

Maybe I'm remembering a different reality but I could have sworn there was a lynch mob that wanted to run Willie out of town before last season.

 

[Nineteen67]

Fair post, players performance is fluid season over season, Just because you score 140 one year does not mean you are the best in the next year. Unless you are Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid.



Maybe I'm remembering a different reality but I could have sworn there was a lynch mob that wanted to run Willie out of town before last season.

The vast majority of fans wanted change from “we can and we will”. Nylander was an obvious choice two years ago and Marner was the obvious choice this summer.

We’ve learned this summer that they’re too old to practice, work out, and improve their weaknesses, so where does that leave them?

 

[Dekes For Days]

throw a @ sign at me so i can respond when you talk about me. The stats arent mine, they rarely are

The stats are yours. You are the one who keeps reposting them in every thread after they've already been debunked. We've discussed this countless times. As for the origin of the stats, they're conveniently not publicly available, so the author is free to cherry pick whatever microstats he wants (and exclude others, while providing no explanation) to craft a narrative without anybody checking his work or decisions.

As for the chosen micro stats themselves... Well we can start off by easily seeing how garbage they are, because instead of extrapolating conclusions from partial micro stats, we can just look at the metric that measures his individual shot quality. From regular season to playoffs that year, Marner's iXG/60 rose 0.11 at 5v5 and rose 0.05 on the PP.

That's really the end of it, but if you wanted to know why your stats are misleading...

There seem to be 2 reasons why his average shot distance is longer:
1. It is counting a puck shot in from the neutral zone, which with such a small sample, can skew the numbers.
2. He took a grand total of 2 extra shots than normal from the blueline.

Why did he take 2 extra shots from the blueline? Because it played into Vasilevsky's weakness that the Leafs tried to specifically exploit, and Marner himself scored 3 times from there. You're literally complaining about a nothing dump in, and Marner scoring goals.

As for the slot percentages... There are multiple problems...
1. The "slot" is one specific area of the ice. There are other quality and high-danger areas to shoot from, but the author specifically focuses on that one specific area. Suspicious.
2. Either his percentages are wrong, or he's further limiting an already tiny data set in some way without saying so. The percentages don't result in whole numbers, and a player can't take 0.6 of a shot. He has done something wrong, and the numbers are wrong. For the record, according to the NHL, 48% of his playoff shots were from the slot, and his most common shooting location was dead center in the slot. He was at 35% in the regular season.

This is why it's important to actually understand what you're posting, and the stats that you're using, instead of relying on media personalities to craft bad narratives for you.

 

[Nineteen67]

throw a @ sign at me so i can respond when you talk about me. The stats arent mine, they rarely are, i get my data from published articles or advanced stats. Your posts are completely biased though and baseless opinions.

Here is the article:

Why Maple Leafs fell short again and what to do with Matthews, Marner

So another disappointing end to a Maple Leafs season comes with huge off-season questions. Justin Bourne looks at exactly why this year's group fell short again, and explores what it should mean for Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, and more.

www.google.com

Heres the relavant info:
View attachment 902406

View attachment 902407

Now proceed to respond to this data posted by Sportsnet. please be objective and use data to support your post or dont bother wasting anyones time attacking the ethics of the writer. Attack the data..if you think it’s wrong, prove it.

We don’t need sportlogiq stats to tell us Marner’s shot is below average and teams defend around that.

 

[notdoneyet]

The Nylander pump up brigade seems to have been out in full force overnight, not sure where all their desperation comes from?
It's really weird.

Well nylander will be held to much more scrutiny now that he is one of the top paid players in the league. No more double flamingos or slowing down to avoid being the first on the puck in the corners. He will also have to stop cheating offensively in his own end and actually try to learn some defensive skills.

 

[thewave]

Well nylander will be held to much more scrutiny now that he is one of the top paid players in the league. No more double flamingos or slowing down to avoid being the first on the puck in the corners. He will also have to stop cheating offensively in his own end and actually try to learn some defensive skills.

Well youre right about all this. It comes with being overpaid. At the very least he will have to put up some stellar post seasons.

Nobody in this tow remembers anything about regular season players. The playoff performers are who get remembered.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Well youre right about all this. It comes with being overpaid. At the very least he will have to put up some stellar post seasons.

Nobody in this tow remembers anything about regular season players. The playoff performers are who get remembered.

In game one or game 5,6,7?

 

[thewave]

In game one or game 5,6,7?

At the money he is making? People want to see Sundin level and I think that means pretty consistent. 1-7 no matter the round.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

At the money he is making? People want to see Sundin level and I think that means pretty consistent. 1-7 no matter the round.

 

[ULF_55]

Not sure I agree with you entirely on this one. It definitely has an aspect of being a more reputation based award but Bergeron was a no-brainer best defensive forward around after Datsyuk hung them up. His faceoff talents alone were dominant but paired with his good offensive production he was always an easy choice for the Selke.

Same with Barkov. He made so many clutch and intelligent defensive plays in these playoffs alone it’s easy to spot the significant gap between him and Marner/Matthews.

I've read the discussion wrt Kopitar versus Bergeron.
Kopitar 2 Cups
Bergeron 1 Cup.
Kopitar .88 PPG
Bergeron .80 PPG

And yes, there was always more media hype about Bergeron.

 

[ULF_55]

my report was not about even strenght but about 5v5... so that's exclude 4v4 and 6v5

No problem.

However, even strength goals don't just disappear.
NHL stats record them.

 

[Mess]

I've read the discussion wrt Kopitar versus Bergeron.
Kopitar 2 Cups
Bergeron 1 Cup.
Kopitar .88 PPG
Bergeron .80 PPG

And yes, there was always more media hype about Bergeron.

"Defense wins Championships"

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given "to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

Best Defensive Forward ... Bergeron 6 - Kopitar 2

PS. I've lost count how many time Boston has eliminated the Leafs in the 1st round against this group.

 

[ACC1224]

I've read the discussion wrt Kopitar versus Bergeron.
Kopitar 2 Cups
Bergeron 1 Cup.
Kopitar .88 PPG
Bergeron .80 PPG

And yes, there was always more media hype about Bergeron.

East Coast vs West Coast

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I've read the discussion wrt Kopitar versus Bergeron.
Kopitar 2 Cups
Bergeron 1 Cup.
Kopitar .88 PPG
Bergeron .80 PPG

And yes, there was always more media hype about Bergeron.

Actually very true.

The fact I completely forgot about Kopitar says a lot. They were neck and neck though, I’m sure media hype propelled Bergeron a bit over the line.

I think the same thing that’s happened with Kopitar is happening with Barkov. Guys that go under the radar due to nationality/location. These past playoffs though I definitely grew an understanding of why he’s always been considered a strong two way forward.

 

[thewave]

"Defense wins Championships"

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given "to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

Best Defensive Forward ... Bergeron 6 - Kopitar 2


View attachment 902545

PS. I've lost count how many time Boston has eliminated the Leafs in the 1st round against this group.

List is very telling. Do you think Marner Matthews or Nylander have what it takes?

In my mind no way. Thats why we dont go deep either.

 

[ULF_55]

"Defense wins Championships"

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given "to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

Best Defensive Forward ... Bergeron 6 - Kopitar 2


View attachment 902545

PS. I've lost count how many time Boston has eliminated the Leafs in the 1st round against this group.

But of course one Cup to rule them all.

Kopitar 2
Bergeron 1

 

[Hellcat]

"Defense wins Championships"

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given "to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

Best Defensive Forward ... Bergeron 6 - Kopitar 2


View attachment 902545

PS. I've lost count how many time Boston has eliminated the Leafs in the 1st round against this group.

You're conflating individual awards (Selke) with team awards (Stanley Cup), they often don't have a correlation.

Players out West tend to get screwed, when it comes to individual NHL awards, there is an East v West bias.

 

[Antropovsky]

The stats are yours. You are the one who keeps reposting them in every thread after they've already been debunked. We've discussed this countless times. As for the origin of the stats, they're conveniently not publicly available, so the author is free to cherry pick whatever microstats he wants (and exclude others, while providing no explanation) to craft a narrative without anybody checking his work or decisions.



As for the chosen micro stats themselves... Well we can start off by easily seeing how garbage they are, because instead of extrapolating conclusions from partial micro stats, we can just look at the metric that measures his individual shot quality. From regular season to playoffs that year, Marner's iXG/60 rose 0.11 at 5v5 and rose 0.05 on the PP.



That's really the end of it, but if you wanted to know why your stats are misleading...



There seem to be 2 reasons why his average shot distance is longer:

1. It is counting a puck shot in from the neutral zone, which with such a small sample, can skew the numbers.

2. He took a grand total of 2 extra shots than normal from the blueline.



Why did he take 2 extra shots from the blueline? Because it played into Vasilevsky's weakness that the Leafs tried to specifically exploit, and Marner himself scored 3 times from there. You're literally complaining about a nothing dump in, and Marner scoring goals.



As for the slot percentages... There are multiple problems...

1. The "slot" is one specific area of the ice. There are other quality and high-danger areas to shoot from, but the author specifically focuses on that one specific area. Suspicious.

2. Either his percentages are wrong, or he's further limiting an already tiny data set in some way without saying so. The percentages don't result in whole numbers, and a player can't take 0.6 of a shot. He has done something wrong, and the numbers are wrong. For the record, according to the NHL, 48% of his playoff shots were from the slot, and his most common shooting location was dead center in the slot. He was at 35% in the regular season.



This is why it's important to actually understand what you're posting, and the stats that you're using, instead of relying on media personalities to craft bad narratives for you.

All data in this article via Sportlogiq

The majority of
@NHL
@CHLHockey

@NCAAIceHockey
organizations are #PoweredbySportlogiq data & insights

lol... conveniently unavailable...? because its a company that requires a subscription to access its data?

So is free data from a blogger more accurate and trustworthy? Rather than a huge, leading, organization with lots of resources, that is used by NCAA, NHL and CHL?

This isnt even getting into ethics... you think an author is risking his entire career to sewer Marner? Lol

You definitely need a therapist over your denial.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

All data in this article via Sportlogiq

The majority of
@NHL
@CHLHockey

@NCAAIceHockey
organizations are #PoweredbySportlogiq data & insights

lol... conveniently unavailable...? because its a company that requires a subscription to access its data?

So is free data from a blogger more accurate and trustworthy? Rather than a huge, leading, organization with lots of resources, that is used by NCAA, NHL and CHL?

This isnt even getting into ethics... you think an author is risking his entire career to sewer Marner? Lol

You definitely need a therapist over your denial.

Evidence is only admissible if it placates to certain people's narrative. Trusted sources that call them out on their bullshit narratives are not fairsies.

 

[IPS]

All data in this article via Sportlogiq

The majority of
@NHL
@CHLHockey

@NCAAIceHockey
organizations are #PoweredbySportlogiq data & insights

lol... conveniently unavailable...? because its a company that requires a subscription to access its data?

So is free data from a blogger more accurate and trustworthy? Rather than a huge, leading, organization with lots of resources, that is used by NCAA, NHL and CHL?

This isnt even getting into ethics... you think an author is risking his entire career to sewer Marner? Lol

You definitely need a therapist over your denial.

"Sportlogiq was created by Olympic athlete Craig Buntin and PhD in computer vision and machine learning, Mehrsan Javan.
With Craig’s experience as a seven-time Canadian national team member, he recognized the importance of advanced sports analytics in training and performance.
Partnering with Mehrsan, who has over 10 years of experience in algorithm development for intelligent systems, they founded Sportlogiq to revolutionize sports analytics.
Sportlogiq is backed by Mark Cuban and the TandemLaunch incubator."

Amazing, a stats webiste that's created by actual credible people rather then some random internet bloggers from Naturalstattrick and quanthockey that don't even describe where or how they get their stats, their sources, or anything.

 

[Hellcat]

All data in this article via Sportlogiq

The majority of
@NHL
@CHLHockey

@NCAAIceHockey
organizations are #PoweredbySportlogiq data & insights

lol... conveniently unavailable...? because its a company that requires a subscription to access its data?

So is free data from a blogger more accurate and trustworthy? Rather than a huge, leading, organization with lots of resources, that is used by NCAA, NHL and CHL?

This isnt even getting into ethics... you think an author is risking his entire career to sewer Marner? Lol

You definitely need a therapist over your denial.

Not sure you clearly defined the point you were trying poorly to make. Your point is exactly what? Marner has a bad shot? Marner has a weak shot?

 

[egd27]

The Nylander pump up brigade seems to have been out in full force overnight, not sure where all their desperation comes from?
It's really weird.

I remember when there was a faction that swore up and down that Matt Fratten was superior to Kadri. Good times