Post-Game Talk: No Cup for Winnipeg this Year | 4-1 Leafs Win

[wingman75]

what game are you watching ?

the second line was complete garbage tonight. they got dominated 5 on 5 tonight , a couple more games like that there is no way that line sticks together.
also clifford has been irrelevent for years now and bring nothing to the table. he sucks and takes stupid penalties EVERY time he plays. ill be glad if he never plays again.

Simmonds was good except for that dumb penalty.

I was definitely not watching whatever you were. Hope you enjoyed the game.

Go Leafs!!

 

[Stephen]

It’s good to have guys like Simmonds and Clifford that you can put into the line up situationally but also that you have the depth where you don’t have to dress them every game.

They’re just not regular NHLers anymore. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a use for the occasional game that calls for some physicality and toughness to give the team a boost.

Exactly. And in ideal circumstances you have healthy, prime aged replacements for guys like Simmonds, Muzzin and Clifford who can bring those elements on a regular basis.

 

[Stephen]

I wouldn't stress about who dresses because the rest of the team has shown time and time again, just like in this game, that they can handle themselves if necessary, regardless of who dresses on the 4th line. And regardless of who dresses, it's not going to deter those dangerous moments from happening in the first place anyway.

Clifford didn't do much of anything, so I'd replace him with somebody who is better at hockey. Simmonds I think looked good and has earned more games rotating in, so I'd have no problem with him being dressed. And I'll credit them for things they actually do, instead of crediting them for some made-up magical aura of protection.

Thought so, Simmonds and Clifford, it is.

 

[Stephen]

Again, why didn’t that “protection effect” happen in the last 110 games Simmonds dressed for the team?

Seems like people are using a 1 game sample where the team coincidentally played more physical against a team they have a history playing physical against. Where was this team physical play in Simmonds 2 year tenure?

I’m talking about general hockey culture norms and Simmonds and Clifford making specific contribution in a one game situation.

I’ve also been stressing the importance of actually replacing these player types with the prime aged full time versions of them because like you said Simmonds isn’t always effective or noticeable.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Thought so, Simmonds and Clifford, it is.

Thought what? I said Simmonds, not Clifford, and for his actual hockey contributions. Not as a deterrent. Not as some mystical wizard that casts a spell on the team to make them do the same thing they always do in these types of situations.

 

[Bomber0104]

I’m talking about general hockey culture norms and Simmonds and Clifford making specific contribution in a one game situation.

I’ve also been stressing the importance of actually replacing these player types with the prime aged full time versions of them because like you said Simmonds isn’t always effective or noticeable.

There was one available a few seasons ago for cheap that Dubas could have easily acquired but passed on.

Predictably, the usual suspects here were against that too.

Sam Bennett Available

Pure gold in that thread.

 

[The Podium]

I’m talking about general hockey culture norms and Simmonds and Clifford making specific contribution in a one game situation.

I’ve also been stressing the importance of actually replacing these player types with the prime aged full time versions of them because like you said Simmonds isn’t always effective or noticeable.

So we’re on the same page. The effect only happens when those types of players can actually play (Tom Wilson, Matthew Tkachuk, etc.)

 

[egd27]

Maybe a different approach is needed for the few struggling with the concept.
Why do you think Dubas signed these players and why do you think Keefe chose to dress them ?

You and I both know that a different approach will not accomplish anything when dealing with certain posters.

It's either an act or a complete refusal to accept any opinion other than their own, however misguided it may be.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You only have to look at how uncharacteristicly Rielly snapped to know the players were wound a little tight for this one. They knew they were going to war the minute they heard who was dressing.

That's actually not that uncharacteristic for Rielly, and the team knew they'd be going to war when they saw Winnipeg on the schedule, especially after what happened when they last met - not because Simmonds and Clifford were in the lineup. It would have been a war regardless of who dressed, just like it was the previous time.

 

[All Mod Cons]

There was one available a few seasons ago for cheap that Dubas could have easily acquired but passed on.

Predictably, the usual suspects here were against that too.

Sam Bennett Available

Pure gold in that thread.

Ooooffff.

The big Z-man had a mare in that thread.

 

[BertCorbeau]

There was one available a few seasons ago for cheap that Dubas could have easily acquired but passed on.

Predictably, the usual suspects here were against that too.

Sam Bennett Available

Pure gold in that thread.

Bennett was a gamble that paid off largely for Florida, but it was a big gamble to give up effectively two 2nds for what he had proven at the time.

Over 400 game he amassed 140 points with Calgary, while being unreliable on the dot and at centre. And unable to find consistency anywhere in the line up. He only had his draft pedigree in his back pocket.

Sucks that the Leafs missed out but there was good reasons to not pay the pride.

 

[The Podium]

That's actually not that uncharacteristic for Rielly, and the team knew they'd be going to war when they saw Winnipeg on the schedule, especially after what happened when they last met - not because Simmonds and Clifford were in the lineup. It would have been a war regardless of who dressed, just like it was the previous time.

Jason Spezza got suspended for the first time in his long career the last time we played the Jets. Something about them makes this team act uncharacteristically.

You and I both know that a different approach will not accomplish anything when dealing with certain posters.

It's either an act or a complete refusal to accept any opinion other than their own, however misguided it may be.

It’s funny that the opposite is true as well. Do you guys really think you are accepting other opinions? We also believe they are misguided

 

[egd27]

The behaviour was exactly as everybody expected. The same as it was the last time we faced Winnipeg. The same we've shown plenty of times before when things get heated to that level, Simmonds/Clifford or not.

Of course you do realize that both Simmonds and Clifford were in the line up for both games against Winnipeg last season as well....right?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Rielly has great leadership skills .. not great fists but he shows up 2 thumbs up .. having Cliffy and Wayner on bench helps everyone else play bigger .. and Wayner from what I could see played pretty good

 

[ACC1224]

It’s good to have guys like Simmonds and Clifford that you can put into the line up situationally but also that you have the depth where you don’t have to dress them every game.

They’re just not regular NHLers anymore. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a use for the occasional game that calls for some physicality and toughness to give the team a boost.

Exactly.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Of course you do realize that both Simmonds and Clifford were in the line up for both games against Winnipeg last season as well....right?

Cool story. Irrelevant.

Of course you do realize that Simmonds and Clifford were in the lineup for many games over the years that didn't turn into wars... right?

Or do their magical superpowers only activate in the cold of Winnipeg?

 

[ACC1224]

You and I both know that a different approach will not accomplish anything when dealing with certain posters.

It's either an act or a complete refusal to accept any opinion other than their own, however misguided it may be.

Shouldn't be so difficult to see the other side but not everyone can keep an open mind.
The insecurities won't allow it.

Anyway, topic has been beaten to death.....on to Vegas.

 

[egd27]

Jason Spezza got suspended for the first time in his long career the last time we played the Jets. Something about them makes this team act uncharacteristically.



It’s funny that the opposite is true as well. Do you guys really think you are accepting other opinions? We also believe they are misguided

Not always, but personally I've admitted being incorrect several times.

But in this situation, there is enough (albeit circumstantial) evidence to suggest that having Simmonds/Clifford in the line up had an effect on how the team played differently from other games this season. To categorically deny it without acknowledging even the possibility indicates (IMO) an unhealthy level of obstinateness,

 

[Stephen]

So we’re on the same page. The effect only happens when those types of players can actually play (Tom Wilson, Matthew Tkachuk, etc.)

Ideally! But if the Core Four composition stays the same and that’s non negotiable you’d be well served to bring in the next tier of guys who can do that. Muzzin was in that class but he’s worn down. The next tier down might be at the Kerfoot Engvall level. But in a pinch it’s Simmonds, Clifford.

 

[The Podium]

Not always, but personally I've admitted being incorrect several times.

But in this situation, there is enough (albeit circumstantial) evidence to suggest that having Simmonds/Clifford in the line up had an effect on how the team played differently from other games this season. To categorically deny it without acknowledging even the possibility indicates (IMO) an unhealthy level of obstinateness,

It is certainly possible but let’s look at it like this:

- Wayne Simmonds 111 games played for the Toronto Maple Leafs in which time they have largely been “soft”
- The last time the Leafs played Winnipeg, it was a very physical affair where Jason Spezza was suspended for the first time in his 1000+ game career
- The Leafs just got called out publicly for being soft against Dallas

With or without Simmonds in the lineup, this was going to be a predictably physical game. Maybe there is some truth to Simmonds injecting that into the lineup, but the boys would’ve played hard regardless.

I guess we’ll see if, moving forward, the Leafs continue to play physical for as long as Wayne is here or if they revert back to their play the other 110 games of their tenure.

 

[Stephen]

Thought what? I said Simmonds, not Clifford, and for his actual hockey contributions. Not as a deterrent. Not as some mystical wizard that casts a spell on the team to make them do the same thing they always do in these types of situations.

So would you dress Malgin and Abruzzesse in place of Simmonds and Clifford the next time we went into a road game against a heavy hitting team?

 

[Stephen]

It is certainly possible but let’s look at it like this:

- Wayne Simmonds 111 games played for the Toronto Maple Leafs in which time they have largely been “soft”
- The last time the Leafs played Winnipeg, it was a very physical affair where Jason Spezza was suspended for the first time in his 1000+ game career
- The Leafs just got called out publicly for being soft against Dallas

With or without Simmonds in the lineup, this was going to be a predictably physical game. Maybe there is some truth to Simmonds injecting that into the lineup, but the boys would’ve played hard regardless.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but I don’t think this is a referendum on Simmonds being a critical cog player on the Leafs going forward. (Though his player type is). And even if he and Clifford brought some placebo that made everyone else play tougher, meaner, well that’s just what goons are for, if just in a pinch.

 

[The Podium]

Correct me if I’m wrong here but I don’t think this is a referendum on Simmonds being a critical cog player on the Leafs going forward. (Though his player type is). And even if he and Clifford brought some placebo that made everyone else play tougher, meaner, well that’s just what goons are for, if just in a pinch.

I just don’t think there is a placebo

 

[Dekes For Days]

So would you dress Malgin and Abruzzesse in place of Simmonds and Clifford the next time we went into a road game against a heavy hitting team?

Why would we dress Abruzzesse? He's not even on the team, and hasn't really done anything to earn a spot.
Malgin would be fine to dress, if he was one of the 12 best available forwards.

One thing's for sure - I wouldn't be making my lineup decisions based on some imaginary aura of influence.

 

[Stephen]

Why would we dress Abruzzesse? He's not even on the team, and hasn't really done anything to earn a spot.
Malgin would be fine to dress, if he was one of the 12 best available forwards.

So you would dress someone like Malgin and expect the Leafs to play a similarly tough game without Simmonds and Clifford… that’s a wrap.