League News: NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) - 2022-23 season, Vol. 4, Off-season Edition

[g00n]

For the first time since the Young Guns I'm pretty interested in our prospect pool. I don't think we're going to tank for very long, if at all.

 

[RedRocking]

It's PIT v WSH in the battle of Man-Games-Lost.

While PIT did great to jettison dead weight of Petry/Granlund/DeSmith, they're still in just as precarious a position as us

They need everything to go right to make the Playoffs with shitty depth, questionable D, and questionable G

Are they gonna be able to win old-school Smythe Division 6-5 games all year?
seems murky. and ponderous. and mellifluous. and melodius. and felonious. and thelonius monkius.

Straight offense, No Chaser defense.

I’ll see myself out.

 

[Calicaps]

For the first time since the Young Guns I'm pretty interested in our prospect pool. I don't think we're going to tank for very long, if at all.

I tend to agree, and I think it's a matter of approach. Pitt is going all in now with the expectation of an extended rebuild after and the Caps are aiming for a softer landing and managing the unique factor of the chase for 895.

 

[HeyMattyB]

Every time someone mentions Pacioretty or Edmunson, it takes my brain a moment to remember that the Caps acquired them in the offseason. That information just refuses to sink in, apparently.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

For the first time since the Young Guns I'm pretty interested in our prospect pool. I don't think we're going to tank for very long, if at all.

I agree but they need to figure out the center position. McMichael and Lapierre look like they could be future middle six centers but it’s hard to find that dominant, high-end 1C. You normally have to draft them high in the first round.

 

[g00n]

I agree but they need to figure out the center position. McMichael and Lapierre look like they could be future middle six centers but it’s hard to find that dominant, high-end 1C. You normally have to draft them high in the first round.

Maybe they're happy with Strome and expect him to develop even more.

 

[HTFN]

Maybe they're happy with Strome and expect him to develop even more.

Well… that would be a little unwise.

If anything I’d say 1C is going to be where they make their biggest swing. Nothing good on the market right now but a lot of space for them to outbid and overpay for the right guy in the next few years.

At least, if I were GMBM I’d be relatively happy with my pieces right now and hoping I can corner a 1C/1D, in that order, before I let a lot of that cap space go to waste. Team looks drastically different with these pieces around a strong middle.

 

[Cappy76]

I used the "significant" caveat because I didn't want some poster running up to quote me after the Capitals sign Max Comtois or Adam Erne or some other NHL/AHL tweener to a PTO with a "see see, I told you they weren't done!"

If they do something with the cap space they would get from trading Mantha (or they offload him for a real gain, rather than being forced to pay to eliminate his contract), that would indeed be significant. But who do you think is a mystery buyer for Mantha that is left? Who suddenly is willing to eat that contract that wasn't willing to at the NHL draft? Who is even left to spend that cap space on? Patrick Kane or Jonathan Toews? The best opportunities for them to get rid of Mantha before the season starts have passed, and most of the best things players to use the cap space he would free up are now signed. Most likely scenario now is trading Mantha in the lead-up to the trade deadline, especially if Carbery can make him look like a useful asset.

I don't particularly care if GMBM is "trying" or not. General Managers aren't paid for trying. They're paid for executing a plan, and right now it seems like the Capitals plan is all about 894. They are neither swinging for another Championship now (which is a very tall ask indeed) nor are they building a bridge into the post-Ovechkin years.

Again a move just for the sake of making a move doesn't translate to impactful. If he's trying to swing a trade and doesn't make one because of the cost you're saying he's not executing a plan. If said plan is to not give up future assets then would that not indicate they're following the plan?

How are they not bridging to post Ovechkin years in trading for Sandin and picking 8th overall? They could have easily resigned Orlov and added more $$$ obligated past 3 years from now. They could have easily traded Mantha + 8th overall for upgrades now, pretty sure it was widely reported around the draft that teams were looking to move up but teams picking there weren't interested in moving those picks. The team seemingly no willing to move a young player (Lappy, CMM, 8th overall pick) seems to paint the picture of focusing on post Ovechkin years.

If they move Mantha and don't bring in another piece it opens up space for a younger player to play. You'd say it wasn't an impactful move but would it not be giving the youngsters a chance to play and seeing what we have for the future? Why does there have to be a team visible to us that would be willing to take on Mantha? San Jose just aquired Granlund who many insisted was going to be buy out fodder. Maybe an injury happens in training camp and a team wants to take a chance on Mantha for a year at a low cost. To me that's still impactful/significant for this team. They'd gain an asset (maybe only a pick but still an asset), which allows cap space to be gained that could potentially be used at the deadline if they're in the hunt. If not whose to say they can't weaponize cap space and be part of a 3 way deal that allows a team to trade futures for us to eat cap?

Significant isn't the problem, the opinion of what would be significant and what the "plan" is, is what posters are having issues comprehending.

 

[Hivemind]

... aside from this being a dogshit take, what moves are you pointing to that makes this clear? Which moves or lack of moves are you pointing to that suggest the Capitals want Ovechkin to keep scoring goals but not win anymore?

Isn't treating your assets with value actually the move you make if 894 is just another milestone, instead of selling Mantha at a fat loss (or paying someone to take him) so you can overpay for somebody else, say you took a shot, and then leave the team f***ed 2-3 years from now when Ovechkin's already got the record anyway?

It's just a whiny rhetoric based on how whiny babies want to spin events.


See, and I'm way more interested in the next 5 years of Caps hockey than I would be if I were a Pittsburgh fan right now, knowing how truly grim it looks just around the corner.

What other path are they forging ahead?

It's plain as day as they aren't rebuilding. Folks around here love to drag up the quote about not rebuilding before Ovie retires. The biggest asset they've sold off is Orlov, and that was because it was obvious they weren't going to get a contract done. They actively refuse to clear space for younger players to develop on the roster, and have loaded up with marginal veterans instead (including this off-season). So, they're not rebuilding.

Are they contending? I don't think so. If you think their aim is to contend now, then you would also have to admit they're failing at it. They missed the playoffs (and it wasn't particularly close) last year. They haven't won a first round series since 2018. Columbus, Vancouver, and Montreal have won more playoff games than the Capitals during that stretch. Even the Flyers have won as many playoff games as the Capitals since 2018, meaning the Capitals are literally tied for last in the Metropolitan division in playoff success during that span. So we're doing a better job contending than, who, Buffalo and Ottawa? Yay?

So they're not rebuilding. They're failing at contending. So what's the framework of success you can give them? That they're treading some marginal path of a team that gets 8th overall draft picks instead of a 3rd overall? Big whoop. Their beacon of success is clearly defined by one objective, 894. And the fact that the core of this hockey team has stayed the same despite a revolving door of head coaches is evidence enough of that.

Management hasn't shaken up the core of this hockey team since they traded for TJ Oshie, all the way back in 2015. Powerplay 1 is all still here on, what is in essence, lifetime deals. They just inked Tom Wilson to join that group, as well. Letting Holtby go was as close as they've come, and the writing was on the wall there, with him losing his starting role multiple seasons in a row and being on an expiring contract (and we reached the point where he's not even in the NHL anymore, despite not officially being retired). For better or worse, they've piroritized keeping Ovechkin's teammates around over the types of meaningful change that any other franchise (or even any other time period of the Capitals) would do when faced with five straight seasons of futility.

I don't think Pittsburgh's approach would be my ideal one, but I'd rather swing for the fences than try to bail the boat out of sinking water with a bucket. This team isn't planning on really contending now. They aren't building for the future, either. They're playing for memories instead. Memories of the 2018 Cup. Memories to be made by 894.

I tend to agree, and I think it's a matter of approach. Pitt is going all in now with the expectation of an extended rebuild after and the Caps are aiming for a softer landing and managing the unique factor of the chase for 895.

What softer landing? The Capitals haven't prepared much for the post-Ovie era. In fact, they were doing quite the opposite during the Lavi years, suppressing opportunities for younger players at every chance they could (this being another area where you and I have had strong disagreements in the past, with you repeatedly defending the coaching staff and management's decisions to field veterans like Carl Hagelin). The prospect system still ranks in the bottom third in the league, and they haven't helped it by sidelining multiple high promise prospects. Heck, it's not even clear if there will be space for Sudzalev in Hershey this year.

 

[Hivemind]

I'll put it this way:

The Capitals and Penguins are both travelling down the road towards a bridge that's out. We all see it coming ahead on the road, the retirement of the Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin-era of players (that collapsed bridge ahead). The Penguins decided to gun it as hard as they can, they want to leap over that gap at full speed. They're probably not going to make it, and will end up crashing in the ravine. But they're gunning for it. The Capitals, on the other hand, are just kinda going the same speed as always. They're not punching it, but they're also not slowing down to avoid falling off the bridge. They're going to fall off into the same ravine as the Penguins, but they won't be doing a sick Dukes of Hazard burn-out before they do.

I think my personal preference would be to slow down and try to avoid falling off, but I'd rather do what the Pens are doing than do nothing at all end up in the same place.

 

[zappa4ever]

Caps have the potential for threading the needle and having a soft landing with the upcoming prospects and so much coming off the books after 2024-25;
I like our potential for being long-term better than PIT come 2025-26 and several years after much better than PIT's

Seems pretty obvious GMBM is trying to balance being competitive and gettting a Playoff berth the next 2 years while not trying to blow the future and force a foolish "win now" trade when we're not exactly Cup contenders; seems he's shopping actively but not finding a worthy deal

Sometimes the best deal is the one you don't make

Maybe in preseason or early in RS some team has a major injury and all-of-a-sudden we come in with the Mantha or Kuzy deal b/c we weren't desperate this summer?
Only time will tell

Straight offense, No Chaser defense.

I’ll see myself out.

Well, you needn't

 

[YippieKaey]

Maybe Mantha finds his game under a new coach and becomes a big but goofy two way 50 pt guy, whilst at the same time Kuzy starts snorting and McMichael finds his flow whilst Bäckström can at least keep our PP at 20+%. Then our team can make the playoffs. But im getting strong lottery team vibes, and that might be best in the long run.

 

[Langway]

If anything I’d say 1C is going to be where they make their biggest swing. Nothing good on the market right now but a lot of space for them to outbid and overpay for the right guy in the next few years.

At least, if I were GMBM I’d be relatively happy with my pieces right now and hoping I can corner a 1C/1D, in that order, before I let a lot of that cap space go to waste. Team looks drastically different with these pieces around a strong middle.

Agreed. But it's going to be a challenge finding elite pieces where they won't be paying a premium based on name value to some extent. They may still be elite. Who knows. Hard to know what may become available. But the Caps mainly need to get back in the business of creating and developing names rather than poaching them after they're established. As-is the pipeline is good enough to complement some home run acquisition headliners but that's probably it. Another top 12ish pick, particularly at more of a scarce position like C/D, and maybe that's enough. Leonard's a gamer. He should carry the torch from Oshie pretty easily. Miro could be a gamer. I'm still not sure what exactly he is yet. That is IMO maybe the most interesting storyline this season...finding that out. The rest that are further out are sketchy in overall profile. They've added some upside but they're basically all wingers.

Teams like PIT can compensate for a weak pipeline via UFA but if their first foray is any indication they sure went old didn't they? It seems like a big misread, even for a team looking to just hang on. Acciari could be decent but I doubt they'll get enough energy from the rest. I doubt they're built to do much damage against a Carolina or New Jersey unless they hit on a few more moves. Edmonton has had to get through the West but if they can't win playing wide open why should anyone expect an older Pittsburgh team to do it? Past winning experience doesn't go that far or else they would have managed better recently.

Both teams are in all likelihood cooked so count me among those that would rather continue collecting picks in the 11-18 range rather than dealing them for the mirage of competitiveness that's mostly just upping their entertainment value. The picks may not pan out but at least there's more of an honest philosophy. Maybe it's trying to accomplish too much at once but they are sort of boned at the moment until some of their big contracts are up. Better to primarily plan for after that and make that their prime window of opportunity (if one is to exist at all).

 

[twabby]

I’m rooting for Vancouver to shit the bed so that Elias Pettersson demands out and Washington nabs him somehow. That’s been my fantasy for a few years now, at least.

 

[Calicaps]

1C is a challenge. They obviously were counting on 92 stepping up and f*** him for not doing it. But it's also true that in relatively short order, they'll have massive cap room. It's preferable, obviously, draft and develop that player, but buying/trading can work too.

 

[g00n]

I’m rooting for Vancouver to shit the bed so that Elias Pettersson demands out and Washington nabs him somehow. That’s been my fantasy for a few years now, at least.

In this fantasy are you drinking a single plum, floating in perfume, served in a man's hat?

 

[twabby]

In this fantasy are you drinking a single plum, floating in perfume, served in a man's hat?

The elusive bananas foster mead that tastes good. I tried making one a few months ago and it was barely drinkable. The idea is great, execution was not so much.

I don’t think Pettersson moving is that outlandish, maybe like 30/70. That franchise is a tire fire and I bet he wants to win. But even if he moves there will be a lot of teams who want him and I’m not sure Washington will do what it takes to get him.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Monitoring your posts? That's rich.
I had associated this stance with you because you went so far as to specifically quote me in a post where you took the stance of "there's still time for roster moves" back at the trade deadline. So I noticed that post, and I noticed it again when you repeated that logic in the post I quoted from this thread.
If you don't have the time to visit CapFriendly, maybe listen to others that do when they say it's unlikely the Caps make a significant move? Or at least don't straight up object to the concept?


I used the "significant" caveat because I didn't want some poster running up to quote me after the Capitals sign Max Comtois or Adam Erne or some other NHL/AHL tweener to a PTO with a "see see, I told you they weren't done!"

If they do something with the cap space they would get from trading Mantha (or they offload him for a real gain, rather than being forced to pay to eliminate his contract), that would indeed be significant. But who do you think is a mystery buyer for Mantha that is left? Who suddenly is willing to eat that contract that wasn't willing to at the NHL draft? Who is even left to spend that cap space on? Patrick Kane or Jonathan Toews? The best opportunities for them to get rid of Mantha before the season starts have passed, and most of the best things players to use the cap space he would free up are now signed. Most likely scenario now is trading Mantha in the lead-up to the trade deadline, especially if Carbery can make him look like a useful asset.

I don't particularly care if GMBM is "trying" or not. General Managers aren't paid for trying. They're paid for executing a plan, and right now it seems like the Capitals plan is all about 894. They are neither swinging for another Championship now (which is a very tall ask indeed) nor are they building a bridge into the post-Ovechkin years.

The “I know it better than you do” schtick is so old dude.

 

[HTFN]

What other path are they forging ahead?

It's plain as day as they aren't rebuilding. Folks around here love to drag up the quote about not rebuilding before Ovie retires. The biggest asset they've sold off is Orlov, and that was because it was obvious they weren't going to get a contract done. They actively refuse to clear space for younger players to develop on the roster, and have loaded up with marginal veterans instead (including this off-season). So, they're not rebuilding.

Are they contending? I don't think so. If you think their aim is to contend now, then you would also have to admit they're failing at it. They missed the playoffs (and it wasn't particularly close) last year. They haven't won a first round series since 2018. Columbus, Vancouver, and Montreal have won more playoff games than the Capitals during that stretch. Even the Flyers have won as many playoff games as the Capitals since 2018, meaning the Capitals are literally tied for last in the Metropolitan division in playoff success during that span. So we're doing a better job contending than, who, Buffalo and Ottawa? Yay?

So they're not rebuilding. They're failing at contending. So what's the framework of success you can give them? That they're treading some marginal path of a team that gets 8th overall draft picks instead of a 3rd overall? Big whoop. Their beacon of success is clearly defined by one objective, 894. And the fact that the core of this hockey team has stayed the same despite a revolving door of head coaches is evidence enough of that.

Management hasn't shaken up the core of this hockey team since they traded for TJ Oshie, all the way back in 2015. Powerplay 1 is all still here on, what is in essence, lifetime deals. They just inked Tom Wilson to join that group, as well. Letting Holtby go was as close as they've come, and the writing was on the wall there, with him losing his starting role multiple seasons in a row and being on an expiring contract (and we reached the point where he's not even in the NHL anymore, despite not officially being retired). For better or worse, they've piroritized keeping Ovechkin's teammates around over the types of meaningful change that any other franchise (or even any other time period of the Capitals) would do when faced with five straight seasons of futility.

I don't think Pittsburgh's approach would be my ideal one, but I'd rather swing for the fences than try to bail the boat out of sinking water with a bucket. This team isn't planning on really contending now. They aren't building for the future, either. They're playing for memories instead. Memories of the 2018 Cup. Memories to be made by 894.


What softer landing? The Capitals haven't prepared much for the post-Ovie era. In fact, they were doing quite the opposite during the Lavi years, suppressing opportunities for younger players at every chance they could (this being another area where you and I have had strong disagreements in the past, with you repeatedly defending the coaching staff and management's decisions to field veterans like Carl Hagelin). The prospect system still ranks in the bottom third in the league, and they haven't helped it by sidelining multiple high promise prospects. Heck, it's not even clear if there will be space for Sudzalev in Hershey this year.

Dude. You only need to look at the structure of the cap to realize this is a flexible “prove it” year for veterans and rookies alike

You should actually firmly re-examine some of what you’re saying because I’ve never been a pro -Hagelin player here. I’ve actually been vehemently anti-Hagelin especially as it relates to his usage. You should really STRONGLY reevaluate my post history there.

 

[Hivemind]

Dude. You only need to look at the structure of the cap to realize this is a flexible “prove it” year for veterans and rookies alike

You should actually firmly re-examine some of what you’re saying because I’ve never been a pro -Hagelin player here. I’ve actually been vehemently anti-Hagelin especially as it relates to his usage. You should really STRONGLY reevaluate my post history there.

The Hagelin comments were in response to Calicaps, who is also quoted in that post.

I'm also not sure what about the cap structure makes this any more of a "prove it" year than the past several. Mantha is on an expiring contract, but nobody else in the top half of the line-up is. If anything, 2024-25 is the "prove it" year, with Kuznetsov, Backstrom, and Oshie on the last year of their contracts.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I'll put it this way:

The Capitals and Penguins are both travelling down the road towards a bridge that's out. We all see it coming ahead on the road, the retirement of the Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin-era of players (that collapsed bridge ahead). The Penguins decided to gun it as hard as they can, they want to leap over that gap at full speed. They're probably not going to make it, and will end up crashing in the ravine. But they're gunning for it. The Capitals, on the other hand, are just kinda going the same speed as always. They're not punching it, but they're also not slowing down to avoid falling off the bridge. They're going to fall off into the same ravine as the Penguins, but they won't be doing a sick Dukes of Hazard burn-out before they do.

I think my personal preference would be to slow down and try to avoid falling off, but I'd rather do what the Pens are doing than do nothing at all end up in the same place.

Dumbest analogy ever. The Caps aren’t slowly trying to cross any bridge, they are trying to get the bridge rebuilt as they approach it.

I can’t handle you anymore, your smug crap and talking down to others as if their ideas are stupid is …… I can’t do it.

I was happier when you were my only ignored poster. Back to the future

Edit —

And there it is.

Ahhh, sweet bliss. I feel my annoyance level already dropping (Altho the Orioles screwing the pooch late tonite is upsetting, but that will pass!!)

 

[RedRocking]

In this fantasy are you drinking a single plum, floating in perfume, served in a man's hat?

#UnexepectedSimpsons

Nicely played.

 

[Corby78]

How in the world did we start arguing about Haglin again??? Good grief

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

How in the world did we start arguing about Haglin again??? Good grief

Blood pressure… rising.

 

[YippieKaey]

How in the world did we start arguing about Haglin again??? Good grief

I think he is technically still part of the team lol.