NHL Networks top 20 Defensemen

[majormajor]

Jones and Lindholm aren’t past their primes, Jones had a down season with the rest of the Hawks roster and Lindholm had injury trouble and was traded at the deadline, that doesn’t put them past their primes.

Chabot and Dobson should have some consideration at the 19 or 20 top along with Werenski.

Jones' best years were from 2017-2019, when he was about as good as Werenski. He had already taken a step back before going to the Hawks.

Lindholm dinged up, no way? I can believe he's been dinged up for a long time.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So if the puck comes at you, I guess your supposed to move aside and let it get on goal, do you see where this is going...

Your statement makes no sense, defensemen block shots more then any other positional players and has a lot to do with assessing defensive value especially in defensive defensemen.

Blocked shots aren't a measure of defensive ability, though, because there's a general feeling that blocking a shot is a "last resort" action that means that player didn't prevent the opposition from getting to the point where they can take a shot.

Look at a guy like Nicklas Lidstrom's yearly blocked shot totals compared to other defenders. His blocks totals were never really that impressive, but he was a fantastic defender. Why? Because he often didn't allow the opposition to be in a position to take the shot in the first place.

There's a reason Kris Russell holds the record for most blocked shots in his career and not someone who is considered elite defensively.

 

[RapidKnight]

Pelech is a really bad omission.

 

[Casper The Soy Ghost]

Josi, Rielly, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Burns are all ridiculously high.

I agree with everyone you mentioned except for Josi.

 

[LosPollosHermanos]

Chychrun too low. Should be top 3

 

[Bounces R Way]

Yes, Makar is the common factor. But Toews still performs extremely well in the time he has spent without him. When the two are together, they both push each other to another level. It's not all Makar. Toews also has had elite transition metrics and microstats (which are things that aren't strongly affected by his partner) even with the Isles. Getting more responsibilities, and playing a system more suitable to express his offensive game, made him bloom.

This is still a 28 year old dman that has a career high of 28pts not playing with Makar. I could be talked into the tail end of top 20, and I think I'd put him on the Canadian Olympic team atm like Bouwmeester or Vlasic were. But a top 10 position player should have shown the ability to elevate their team, not just supplement an already great team like Toews has.

For the record, these are the microstats / transition stats i talk about for the past 2 years with COL, and his last 3 seasons with the Isles. It's not perfect, but with the consistency shown (the recent charts have more components yes), I wouldn't worry too much about the tracking not being the entire season (it's someone tracking all of this manually after all).

Spoiler: Microstats for Devon Toews

So does Noah Hanifin. So does Hampus Lindholm. So does Nate Schmidt. Lots of defenseman have put up impressive micro-stats in their careers. And on a team that were the buzzsaw Avalanche I think you have to take some of these stats with a grain of salt. Just like every Corsi event is not created equal same can be said about zone entries or exits.

As I implied, there's definitely an argument that he might not be top 10. But the thing is, and this is true today just like it was back in 2010 and 1995, acting like there's a huge gap between #8, #10 and #12 is assissine. You can pretty much interchange any players ranked 8-15 at any position. That's not "elite #1" territory, really. I would definitely put Slavin ahead of him, and probably Heiskanen too.

Realistically, what do guys like Carlson, Rielly, Hughes, etc. have over Toews though?

As for Brodie, he was never as dynamic as Toews imo.

This I will concede as a well argued point, there's not a whole lot separating these players. But Pietrangelo, Doughty, Burns, and even Ekblad and Slavin have carried top pairings while Toews simply hasn't. I just think that while the very top of the defenseman position is in great shape, the next 15-20 dmen aren't up to the standards of the last decade judging from this list.

 

[Ruthervin]

I didn’t want to be the one to tell you this but your bias towards Quinn Hughes is showing.

Maybe you should go back and watch Cale Makar’s 21-22 season + Playoffs.

Hughes would have done the same thing if he had been in Makar's shoes. Hughes' talents aren't as obvious as Makar's because Colorado has a much stronger team than Vancouver at current. Makar also plays with Toews while Hughes plays with Luke Schenn (who I love, but is clearly not Devon Toews).

 

[Pavels Dog]

Blocked shots aren't a measure of defensive ability, though

Disagree.

Which Group of d-men would you say are better defensively?

Group A:
Trouba
Provorov
Peeke
Parayko
McCabe
Pietrangelo
Seider
Tanev
Weegar
Jones

Group B:
Yandle
Zadorov
Mike Rielly
Hughes
Björnfot
Kulak
Montour
Leddy
Jack Johnson
Scandella

 

[John Mandalorian]

Wonder what the common factor is here lol

He's good, not saying he isn't. An excellent #2. But it's very f***ing obvious who is the Batman on that pairing and who is the Robin. TJ Brodie was and is now an excellent top pairing defenseman in this league. At no point did I consider him top 10.

You can believe what you want to believe but in this case, Robin is better than a lot of so-called Batmans in the league. Maybe your problem is erroneous notions stemming from labeling?

Hughes would have done the same thing if he had been in Makar's shoes. Hughes' talents aren't as obvious as Makar's because Colorado has a much stronger team than Vancouver at current. Makar also plays with Toews while Hughes plays with Luke Schenn (who I love, but is clearly not Devon Toews).

And now there's someone saying Makar is overrated due to playing with Toews. LOL.

 

[AvroArrow]

Josi, Rielly, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Burns are all ridiculously high.

Josi ? He's too low if anything

 

[Maurice of Orange]

That’s why he’s much better than Carlson. But seriously are you OK.

Yea I’m ok now, but seriously John Carlson is better then Jaccob Slavin.

Carlson’s 17 goals, 54 assists and 71 points could attest to that my friend.

 

[Golden_Jet]

1) Makar
2) Hedman
3) Josi
4) Fox
5) McAvoy

Now the easy part is over...

6) Ekblad
7) Slavin
8) Heiskanen
9) Letang
10) Toews

Would probably round out my top 10.

11) Hughes
12) Carlson
13) Seider
14) Pietrangelo
15) Theodore
16) Chabot
17) Doughty
18) Werenski
19) Rielly
20) Dahlin

This group is tough. Jumble them around if you like and can add some more names too. Could also possibly move some up into the top 10

That’s a better list than NHL one.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

Pelech is a really bad omission.

Meh, few points so that's always going to knock him down the list. He's one of the top 5 defensive defensemen in the league and his pairing with Pulock is usually in the top 5 d pairings in the NHL. Isles fans are happy with that.

He is ridiculous defensively. His offense has picked up but it was fun to read about how he wasn't a deserving all-star, though he routinely shuts down all-star forwards.

I think he's top 30. Dobson is rising but he still has some growing to do with the defensive part of the game.

If Pulock could get back to the 10g, 25a seasons he'd be in the top 30 somewhere but his offense has fallen off the cliff. Hopefully he comes into this season in great health.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’ve seen list that have Rielly above McAvoy depending on who makes the list does it matter that much, probably not.

They aren’t that far apart as I’ve stated Rielly is more active offensively and McAvoy is more active defensively.

Rielly is a cornerstone PP quarterback and McAvoy is a well rounded 2-way defender. They are close but I have Rielly slightly ahead by 1 spot.

Even leaf fans don’t like Reilly on the PP point, because of his muffin of a shot.

Blocks are a very poor way to assess defensive value.

It’s not poor, it’s just one of the metrics.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Disagree.

Which Group of d-men would you say are better defensively?

Group A:
Trouba
Provorov
Peeke
Parayko
McCabe
Pietrangelo
Seider
Tanev
Weegar
Jones

Group B:
Yandle
Zadorov
Mike Rielly
Hughes
Björnfot
Kulak
Montour
Leddy
Jack Johnson
Scandella

What did you use to come up with that list? Just looked at blocked shots and randomly picked d-men? Or did you go further and look at how they perform in transition defense? (because, if so, it doesn't make much sense; Yandle is awful there while Kulak is good in that aspect, and Trouba is bad while Weegar is elite in that regard)

 

[avsfan9]

Hughes would have done the same thing if he had been in Makar's shoes. Hughes' talents aren't as obvious as Makar's because Colorado has a much stronger team than Vancouver at current. Makar also plays with Toews while Hughes plays with Luke Schenn (who I love, but is clearly not Devon Toews).

Your 3 years too late with your argument

 

[Pavels Dog]

What did you use to come up with that list? Just looked at blocked shots and randomly picked d-men? Or did you go further and look at how they perform in transition defense? (because, if so, it doesn't make much sense; Yandle is awful there while Kulak is good in that aspect, and Trouba is bad while Weegar is elite in that regard)

Top 10D/Bottom 10D in blocked shots (70+ GP).
Of course you need to take many other aspects into account to get a complete picture.

 

[zodiacbiller]

Josi was close to becoming the Norris Thophy winner and Rielly is a 1D

Yeah, I disagree with Norris voters. It's also about who's better, not who had the best 2021-22 season.

I mean a defensemans job is to primarily play defense, blocking shots could also show that Carlson plays on both ends of the ice and isn’t as weak defensively as some posters make Carlson out to be.

My point is that the best sign of good defense is being able to take possession and transition out of your zone. The guys who block the most shots are generally guys who take longer to take possession and transition the puck. I'm not even arguing anything against Carlson, I just don't think blocked shots are a good argument for much of anything. Also reflects coaching a lot of the time, guys will get more blocks if their coach wants a counter-punching team or a less aggressive PK or whatever.

 

[wetcoast]

I mean wouldn't his offense make up for his defense?

Carlson puts up the points but doesn't really drive the play or tilt the ice as ES like a top 10 Dman should out there.

Basically people look at the counting stats and think that he is better than he actually is.

At this point he is closer to #20 than #10 in the league and definitely not better than Slavin.

 

[TGWL]

I think Carlson should be dropped. I know fans look at points but he was awful last season. I don't think Heiskanen played as a top 9/10 last season. (Using 9 because Carlson shouldn't be there), but I'd still have him there in the top 10.

 

[wetcoast]

Of course he is better defensively, but there is a similar gap between them offensively.

Carlson produces twice as much, the gap between 35 points and 70-75 points as a defenseman is enormous.

Almost all of that difference is from PPP but to be sure Carlson is a better offensive Dman than Slavin but most NHL GMs would pick Slavin over Carlson in a one year everyone thrown in the pool dispersal draft and it's not even really close.

 

[wetcoast]

It's a lot better than the winger list. Surprised they put Seider that high already.

I'm a bit surprised but not really as Seider really was that impressive last season and almost certainly will be better this season.

 

[bert]

Funny list in some ways in that other posters have pointed out. There seems to be some early bias's applied in the likes of Seider but also some guys their on reputation or size of market. A few strange omissions for me are Seth Jones, Tomas Chabot.

The top 4 is accurate for my money. I do think there is no doubt that guys like Mccavoy, Slavin, Heiskanen, Ekblad, Pietrangelo are absolute locks for me but the last 11 spots there is alot of for debate for alot of these players. Seider, Dahlin will absolutely be there for sure, not sure if they are a top 20 right now but by seasons end I dont think there will be much of a debate.

If Chabot is in Colorado's system, the way he breaks the puck out and pushes it up the ice there is no way he wouldnt be a top 20 d man. The way he has eaten minutes on an absolutely trash team with Zaitsev who isnt even an NHL player as his main partner is not an easy situation. Playing the minutes he does is very impressive. I think this year he gets some relief his minutes go down and production shoots up.

The two guys who I think simply do not belong on that list are Burns and Rielly. Rielly is a really good d man but he is not a number 1. Burns still a force is not an all situations D man and dominant player like he used to.

 

[RapidKnight]

Yea I’m ok now, but seriously John Carlson is better then Jaccob Slavin.

Carlson’s 17 goals, 54 assists and 71 points could attest to that my friend.

Let me put it this way: when trailing in games Slavin leads ALL top pairing defenseman in 5v5 points/60, xGF/60, and GF/60 the last 3 years. He can and will jump into the play when the occasion is right. Slavin is a top 6 defenseman hands down.

 

[newfy]

Seider right where he should be, list is actually pretty decent for the quality of lists hte NHL usually puts out