NHL Networks top 20 Defensemen

[Ace of Hades]

I have Seth Jones ahead of everyone on that list from 15-20 personally, and Hughes and Seider are too high based on potential. 3 years from now? Sure. Right now? No.

Hughes is right now where he should be. Near the top 10 range. He has three years of proven play so its not just on potential

Seider, I agree with you on that. Also Toews, Carlson and Letang are too high as well

 

[Eggtimer]

After the first 5 guys or so , it’s too hard to appease everyone . The idea of “best Defenceman “ is too broad and differs so much from person to person. My idea of a good Dman and Joseph Blow’s could be completely different.
Some place points and offence as more impactful or important than others.
Me , I take a D that is balanced and / or can play a shit ton of important minutes , either up a goal or down a goal late in the game ,I’d want the same guy on the ice. Protecting a lead or trying to generate offence . Not many guys like that though so I guess you have to prioritize what you feel is more important. I don’t want a guy that scores 70 points but gives up more than he generates.
An ideal D man to me is what prime Weber was, or Pronger … that both can skate like Makar …. Lol . Booming shot , massive frame that plays nasty , can run you through the boards , yet can defend plus put up points and run a PP and PK . I’m not asking for much am I ? The game has changed since prime Pronger though. I’m not sure what the IDEAL NHL Dman looks like anymore . For now , it’s Makar I guess .

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Brodin is criminally under-rated. I'm not sure where he would rank, but there are not 20 defensemen that I would take over him.

He falls into a category similar to Slavin. Used more in a defensive role so doesn't get the PP time/points and thus doesn't fair well in rankings like this, even though he should.

 

[account deactivated]

Slavin will always struggle in rankings like this. This past season, he had more 5v5 points McAvoy, Hughes, Carlson, Seider, and Heiskanen, but they all play on the 1st PP unit and rack up the points on the PP and Slavin doesn't.

I think Slavin is underrated at times, but you're wrong about Miro playing on the 1st PP unit and "racking up the points on the PP". He was more often than not on a very ineffective 2nd unit that was basically just used to rest the top PP unit.

 

[JTeller97]

Drew Doughty was on pace for his career high in points and is still one of the best shutdown D men in the league. He's definitely still top 10 maybe even top 5, the notion that he's not top 20 to some of you is bewildering.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think Slavin is underrated at times, but you're wrong about Miro playing on the 1st PP unit and "racking up the points on the PP". He was more often than not on a very ineffective 2nd unit that was basically just used to rest the top PP unit.

Yeah, that's fair. I was lumping them all together as a general statement but not everything applies to every one of them. Even so, the point I was making is still valid. Miro did have 11 of his 36 points on the PP this past year and got 2:18 min / game (vs. 2:50 / game for Klingberg).

Compare that to Slavin who had only 7 of his 42 points on the PP and only 1:22 min/game on the PP which was primarily mop-up duty on the 2nd unit so that he was on the ice defensively when the PP time ended.

That was my point. Slavin outscored those guys I listed 5v5, but didn't get the same PP opportunities. Heiskanen didn't get the same opportunities as Hughes, Carlson, McAvoy or Seider, but he still got more than Slavin.

Like I said, I'm fine with where he is ranked given the focus on points which is dominated by PP time for most defensemen.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Hughes is right now where he should be. Near the top 10 range. He has three years of proven play so its not just on potential

Seider, I agree with you on that. Also Toews, Carlson and Letang are too high as well

Hughes is basically Tyson Barrie so I don't think he deserves to be on this list until he cleans up defensively.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

A defender that doesn’t get enough credit is Shea Theodore.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Hughes is basically Tyson Barrie so I don't think he deserves to be on this list until he cleans up defensively.

You clearly haven't watched him this season. He has noticeably improved better defensively and is far better than Barrie offensively.

 

[JUSTGIROUXIT]

So to recap for HF:

- NHL player opinions don't matter
- NHL front office opinions don't matter
- Stats don't matter
- NHL media don't count bc "bias"

Eye-test by fans that peaked at AAA hockey at best above all else matters.

What a statement this is.

Who outside of HFboards is putting Reilly above McAvoy on any list?
Seems like a typical HFboards response when someone is dead wrong.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The problem is the person I originally quoted was using it as exactly that -- on its own, a reflection of a player's defensive ability. Regardless of whether it's got little value or no value, the bottom line is it's not some kind of stat that does a good job as an indicator of how well or poorly someone plays defense. If it was, then you'd consistently see the best defenders in the league dominating it.

It's like using plus/minus to determine a player's defensive ability. You'd have to couple it with a whole bunch of other stats to see whether or not it actually indicates what you think it indicates. Because on its own, it doesn't tell you very much about a player's defensive ability.

I agree with that, I might have been focused on semantics. Defensive ability in the end can only be assessed by taking multiple things into account, there's nothing as simple as points to determine offensive ability.

 

[BB88]

Ekblad has gotten much better over the past few years but he’s not a top5 type Dman still.

He doesn’t have the ability to dominate/controll games like Makar, Josi, Heiskanen, Hedman types

I’d have Ekblad, Toews& Carlson a bit lower

 

[Matty Sundin]

It’s a crap shoot after the top 5. Brent Burns doesn’t belong there though.

 

[TheRumble]

After the first 5 guys or so , it’s too hard to appease everyone . The idea of “best Defenceman “ is too broad and differs so much from person to person. My idea of a good Dman and Joseph Blow’s could be completely different.
Some place points and offence as more impactful or important than others.
Me , I take a D that is balanced and / or can play a shit ton of important minutes , either up a goal or down a goal late in the game ,I’d want the same guy on the ice. Protecting a lead or trying to generate offence . Not many guys like that though so I guess you have to prioritize what you feel is more important. I don’t want a guy that scores 70 points but gives up more than he generates.

I think you're scratching the surface of the issue with evaluating defencemen.

Dmen out of all the position IMO has the widest variation of style of play from player to player and that leads to people incorrectly evaluating defencemen.

Chris Tanev and Morgan Rielly are both good defenceman but they couldn't be any more different as players. If you judged them Ina bubble, I wouldn't blame you for thinking they both play different positions entirely. The root of the issue IMO lies with the fact that defencemen are called "defense" men which leads a lot of people to believe their primary role is to play defense. It's a very old term that harkens back to the days where positions were a lot more rigid and had strictly defined roles. Modern hockey is far more fluid than that. Defencemen in hockey should be thought of like Midfielders in soccer.

Lionel Messi and N'Golo Kante are bot midfielders but their roles couldn't be any more different if they played different sports. One is known for his offense and the other is considered the best defensive midfielder in his sport. Messi is gonna go down as a soccer goat so maybe it's an unfair comparison but it just goes to illustrate that a player's set of skills and the role he is given by a coach defines how effective he is at his position. If you made Messi play like Kante and vice versa, both guys would look a lot worse as midfielders.

There four primary fallacies that hockey fans commit when talking about defence IMO:

1 - Defencemen=defenders. I've mentioned this already but elaborating further, there are many teams who generate offense from their dmen first like Colorado and Nashville and there are many teams who's forwards are the best defensive players like Boston and Toronto. Related to this is that forwards are primarily responsible for offense.

2 - Defense is a singular skill like skating or shooting. Defense is a general term in hockey that encompasses many different skills and very few players are good at every single one. Just like how very few players are good at all types of offense. Some are better playmaker, others are elite shooters and others are good at the net front but nobody discusses offense as if it's a singular skill like they discuss defense.

3 - Good defense means you have good defensemen. The 2018 Islanders allowed 2900 shots in a season. The very next year they allowed 500 less shots. They made zero additions on defense in between those two years. They just hired Barry Trotz and he implemented a more conservative style of play. If you asked this forum which team had the best defense corps in 2018, nobody would have had the Islanders in their top 10. If you asked the same question a year later, a bunch of people would have said you'd be insane not to have them in the top 10. Defense is more systems based than player based IMO.

4. Offensive defensemen are interchangeable with wingers. The way a defenceman generates offense is very different from how a winger does it. They are not interchangeable.

 

[HFpapi]

Carlson needs to be bumped out of the top 10 and Slavin into it and also feel Letang needs to go down a few spots but otherwise a surprisingly good list.

 

[YippieKaey]

Letang at 6 seems very high.

 

[Eggtimer]

I think you're scratching the surface of the issue with evaluating defencemen.

Dmen out of all the position IMO has the widest variation of style of play from player to player and that leads to people incorrectly evaluating defencemen.

Chris Tanev and Morgan Rielly are both good defenceman but they couldn't be any more different as players. If you judged them Ina bubble, I wouldn't blame you for thinking they both play different positions entirely. The root of the issue IMO lies with the fact that defencemen are called "defense" men which leads a lot of people to believe their primary role is to play defense. It's a very old term that harkens back to the days where positions were a lot more rigid and had strictly defined roles. Modern hockey is far more fluid than that. Defencemen in hockey should be thought of like Midfielders in soccer.

Lionel Messi and N'Golo Kante are bot midfielders but their roles couldn't be any more different if they played different sports. One is known for his offense and the other is considered the best defensive midfielder in his sport. Messi is gonna go down as a soccer goat so maybe it's an unfair comparison but it just goes to illustrate that a player's set of skills and the role he is given by a coach defines how effective he is at his position. If you made Messi play like Kante and vice versa, both guys would look a lot worse as midfielders.

There four primary fallacies that hockey fans commit when talking about defence IMO:

1 - Defencemen=defenders. I've mentioned this already but elaborating further, there are many teams who generate offense from their dmen first like Colorado and Nashville and there are many teams who's forwards are the best defensive players like Boston and Toronto. Related to this is that forwards are primarily responsible for offense.

2 - Defense is a singular skill like skating or shooting. Defense is a general term in hockey that encompasses many different skills and very few players are good at every single one. Just like how very few players are good at all types of offense. Some are better playmaker, others are elite shooters and others are good at the net front but nobody discusses offense as if it's a singular skill like they discuss defense.

3 - Good defense means you have good defensemen. The 2018 Islanders allowed 2900 shots in a season. The very next year they allowed 500 less shots. They made zero additions on defense in between those two years. They just hired Barry Trotz and he implemented a more conservative style of play. If you asked this forum which team had the best defense corps in 2018, nobody would have had the Islanders in their top 10. If you asked the same question a year later, a bunch of people would have said you'd be insane not to have them in the top 10. Defense is more systems based than player based IMO.

4. Offensive defensemen are interchangeable with wingers. The way a defenceman generates offense is very different from how a winger does it. They are not interchangeable.

I agree with most of what you said except for the Offensive D are interchangeable with wingers . I think I get where you are coming from but I don’t think it’s that extreme yet . Who knows though . The next big thing that wins games might be having D more as Rovers than how we currently see D . Or 5 “ rovers “ … I can’t see how it would work but what do I know … Complete man on man D or complete zone type defence ? I hope not .

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

I like Seider a lot but can someone tell me what he has done to be considered a top20 Dman in the NHL?

 

[Choralone]

Drew Doughty was on pace for his career high in points and is still one of the best shutdown D men in the league. He's definitely still top 10 maybe even top 5, the notion that he's not top 20 to some of you is bewildering.

And he's still only 32.

He's been in the league a long time, but I think people have the impression he's older than he actually is because of that.

 

[hamzarocks]

Orlov’s hasn’t done anything in the playoffs either including the season in which the Caps won the cup, Carlson did produce then.

I don’t want to go off the rails and I’m not questioning Orlov’s 2-way acumen or play driving ability but I don’t believe he’s a better all around defenseman then Carlson is.

The list was for best defenseman from last season, Carlson’s numbers are much better then even some of the players listed above him. Carlson also blocked more shots then Orlov last season so it shows Carlson is somewhat active helping in his own zone.

Morgan riellys my favourite leaf but I don't think he's better than McAvoy

35 pt McAvoy vs 70ish pts Rielly is clearly Rielly

But McAvoy emerged this year and is almost a 60 pt beastly 2-wayD.

Rielly is 9-16 range for me, I'd have him 12 or 13

McAvoy is 5th

 

[hamzarocks]

Rielly is a worse version of Letang

Letang is a top 10D still and one of the top5Ds since 2010

Rielly didn't get to that level but he's been a top 20D since 2018 or so

Great player but not a franchise D like Letang is/was

 

[RRhoads]

I like Seider a lot but can someone tell me what he has done to be considered a top20 Dman in the NHL?

His play last season was actually that good.

Great hitter, excellent workrate, good puckhandler, strong af, good blocker, great at reading the play..

The one thing holding him back is that he has to shoot more.

You need to watch him play, not only his highlights, but watch him do the little things just right as well.

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

And he's still only 32.

He's been in the league a long time, but I think people have the impression he's older than he actually is because of that.

he's struggled to keep up with the faster NHL the last several years but he did have a resurgence this year. too bad he got injured, will be interesting to see how he does this coming year.

 

[newfy]

I like Seider a lot but can someone tell me what he has done to be considered a top20 Dman in the NHL?

He just finished top 20 in scoring for dmen (6 points out of the top 10), is significantly better than several of the defenders ahead of him scoring, is one of the most physical dmen going and he did it all while carrying the corpse of Dekeyser around the ice for most of his rookie season.

As a rookie he had a top ~15 season for dmen, and theyre projecting him to do roughly the same this year with a better supporting cast around him.

Unless your answer is he needs to do it more than once, he was clearly a top 20 D last year, so what else does he need to do?

 

[Buck Naked]

Where's Weegar at? Both actual stats and analytics tells you that he should be on this list.