NHL Networks top 20 Defensemen

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
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7,339
Reilly has a better offensive game as of now, but McAvoy is clearly better in every other aspect. The gap between points doesn’t make up for McAvoy being clearly better in every other aspect of being a defenseman.
The giveaways don’t look good on McAvoy but for as much as he does it’s forgivable. What I find really odd is if you put Rielly’s and McAvoy’s career goals assists and points per game side by side they are exactly identical at 0.11 goals 0.46 assists and 0.57 for both players.
 

Sheppy

Registered User
Nov 23, 2011
59,008
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The Arctic
The giveaways don’t look good on McAvoy but for as much as he does it’s forgivable. What I find really odd is if you put Rielly’s and McAvoy’s career goals assists and points per game side by side they are exactly identical at 0.11 goals 0.46 assists and 0.57 for both players.
You’re not even remotely close to answering my question at this point, man. You’re basically saying McAvoy is better without actually saying it.
 
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Kairi Zaide

Unforgiven
Aug 11, 2009
105,347
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Quebec City
Carlson had a good amount of blocks last season only 9 blocks less then Slavin while putting up a truck load of points at the same time.

Carlson might not be near Slavin defensively but Slavin isn’t no where near Carlson offensively.
The difference between the two defensively is arguably much greater than the difference between the two offensively. While Slavin doesn't have the "firepower" that Carlson has in the o-zone (better shot and vision imo), he remains an excellent passer and is better in transition than Carlson is - which translates to offence. That's pretty much why their difference in production is entirely explained by powerplay production, since their 5v5 production is very similar.
 

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
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Heiskanen too low, he's top 5 for me.



I'm going to guess you haven't watched Jones and Lindholm in a while. They're past their primes while Werenski is at his best. Werenski is similar to Chabot, that could go either way. I can't speak on Dobson.
Jones and Lindholm aren’t past their primes, Jones had a down season with the rest of the Hawks roster and Lindholm had injury trouble and was traded at the deadline, that doesn’t put them past their primes.

Chabot and Dobson should have some consideration at the 19 or 20 top along with Werenski.
 

AvStock

Registered User
Mar 15, 2022
1,714
1,934
Ekblad over Slavin? That’s a funny joke. Ekblad should be below Toews
 

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
10,795
7,339
You’re not even remotely close to answering my question at this point, man. You’re basically saying McAvoy is better without actually saying it.
Say it... SAY ITTT....
77894312-1AF7-4C42-BA35-36FDDB0BE61D.gif

Hey man your not acting all that cool for someone that’s in the Arctic.
 
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Kairi Zaide

Unforgiven
Aug 11, 2009
105,347
12,891
Quebec City
Man the position is in more trouble than I thought if Carlson and Toews are top 10 defenseman in the NHL. Don't think I'd have Heiskanen at 10 and Seider at 11 either. At least they got the top 5 right, although I think a blind goat could have hit those. Also nice to see Letang get some due, better late than never.

Chabot is better than a lot of these guys.
Is it because he's not a super fancy duper superstar that has been seen as such since his sophomore season or something? Yeah he's a "late bloomer", but with how he has played in the past ~2 seasons, there is absolutely nothing worrying when a guy like Toews is in a top 10 of the best d-men. And it's even arguably crazier that there could actually be an argument that a player that has played at his caliber for the past ~2 seasons might not be top 10 at his position.
 

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
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7,339
Blocks are a very poor way to assess defensive value.
So if the puck comes at you, I guess your supposed to move aside and let it get on goal, do you see where this is going...

Your statement makes no sense, defensemen block shots more then any other positional players and has a lot to do with assessing defensive value especially in defensive defensemen.
 
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Bounces R Way

Registered User
Nov 18, 2013
37,055
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Weegartown
Is it because he's not a super fancy duper superstar that has been seen as such since his sophomore season or something? Yeah he's a "late bloomer", but with how he has played in the past ~2 seasons, there is absolutely nothing worrying when a guy like Toews is in a top 10 of the best d-men. And it's even arguably crazier that there could actually be an argument that a player that has played at his caliber for the past ~2 seasons might not be top 10 at his position.

Wonder what the common factor is here lol

He's good, not saying he isn't. An excellent #2. But it's very f***ing obvious who is the Batman on that pairing and who is the Robin. TJ Brodie was and is now an excellent top pairing defenseman in this league. At no point did I consider him top 10.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
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last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Is it because he's not a super fancy duper superstar that has been seen as such since his sophomore season or something? Yeah he's a "late bloomer", but with how he has played in the past ~2 seasons, there is absolutely nothing worrying when a guy like Toews is in a top 10 of the best d-men. And it's even arguably crazier that there could actually be an argument that a player that has played at his caliber for the past ~2 seasons might not be top 10 at his position.

Toews is not top 10. Great D
 

TheRumble

Registered User
Feb 19, 2009
1,465
2,287
I mean a defensemans job is to primarily play defense, blocking shots could also show that Carlson plays on both ends of the ice and isn’t as weak defensively as some posters make Carlson out to be.
This is not true and an artifact from a very old and rigid way of thinking.

Defensemen in hockey are more like midfielders in soccer. Your talent and skills determine how you will play the position. Some guys are more offensive, some are more defensive. Asking Cale Makar to play like prime Zdeno Chara would be asinine and similarly, asking Zdeno Chara to play like Cale Makar would be equally stupid yet both are still great defensemen.
 

RapidKnight

Registered User
Dec 29, 2021
995
565
So if the puck comes at you, I guess your supposed to move aside and let it get on goal, do you see where this is going...

Your statement makes no sense, defensemen block shots more then any other positional players and has a lot to do with assessing defensive value especially in defensive defensemen.
So if an attacking player comes at you, I guess you’re supposed to not close the gap and go for a block… The best defensive defenseman don’t block a lot of shots because they’re actually good at preventing chances.
 

Nona Di Giuseppe

Registered User
Jul 14, 2009
5,052
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Coquitlam
So if the puck comes at you, I guess your supposed to move aside and let it get on goal, do you see where this is going...

Your statement makes no sense, defensemen block shots more then any other positional players and has a lot to do with assessing defensive value especially in defensive defensemen.

Blocks are a very poor way to assess defensive value.

Limiting shots > blocking shots
 

Deep Blue Metallic

Bo knows hockey.
Mar 5, 2021
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The list is pretty damn good. Always going to be plenty of this guy over that guy, he doesn't belong in the top-x, etc. criticism.

Some of the debate itt though.

 
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Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
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So if an attacking player comes at you, I guess you’re supposed to not close the gap and go for a block… The best defensive defenseman don’t block a lot of shots because they’re actually good at preventing chances.
What if you close the gap like Robert Hagg aka Boss Hogg and go for a check out of position and totally miss the check while closing the gap and let the player you were lining up blow by you.
 

Kairi Zaide

Unforgiven
Aug 11, 2009
105,347
12,891
Quebec City
This is not true and an artifact from a very old and rigid way of thinking.

Defensemen in hockey are more like midfielders in soccer. Your talent and skills determine how you will play the position. Some guys are more offensive, some are more defensive. Asking Cale Makar to play like prime Zdeno Chara would be asinine and similarly, asking Zdeno Chara to play like Cale Makar would be equally stupid yet both are still great defensemen.
this

a defenseman's job is the same as any other position, i.e. positively impacting goal differential in the best way they can

What if you close the gap like Robert Hagg aka Boss Hogg and go for a check out of position and totally miss the check while closing the gap and let the player you were lining up blow by you.
This is called the Ben Chiarot special

Being unable to reliably prevent zone entries is generally a sign of terrible defensive accumen
 
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Ruthervin

Registered User
Jul 30, 2022
1,228
870
Seattle
Quinn Hughes should be #6 ahead of Letang and even that is being modest. If Hughes and Makar switched teams, they would basically have had the production that the other guy had. Realistically speaking, Hughes and Makar are tied as being the best defensemen in the league, but I'll try and be a bit modest here.
 

Kairi Zaide

Unforgiven
Aug 11, 2009
105,347
12,891
Quebec City
Wonder what the common factor is here lol

He's good, not saying he isn't. An excellent #2. But it's very f***ing obvious who is the Batman on that pairing and who is the Robin. TJ Brodie was and is now an excellent top pairing defenseman in this league. At no point did I consider him top 10.
Yes, Makar is the common factor. But Toews still performs extremely well in the time he has spent without him. When the two are together, they both push each other to another level. It's not all Makar. Toews also has had elite transition metrics and microstats (which are things that aren't strongly affected by his partner) even with the Isles. Getting more responsibilities, and playing a system more suitable to express his offensive game, made him bloom.

For the record, these are the microstats / transition stats i talk about for the past 2 years with COL, and his last 3 seasons with the Isles. It's not perfect, but with the consistency shown (the recent charts have more components yes), I wouldn't worry too much about the tracking not being the entire season (it's someone tracking all of this manually after all).
c2de559a4b.png

e2f039f52e.png

As I implied, there's definitely an argument that he might not be top 10. But the thing is, and this is true today just like it was back in 2010 and 1995, acting like there's a huge gap between #8, #10 and #12 is assissine. You can pretty much interchange any players ranked 8-15 at any position. That's not "elite #1" territory, really. I would definitely put Slavin ahead of him, and probably Heiskanen too.

Realistically, what do guys like Carlson, Rielly, Hughes, etc. have over Toews though?

As for Brodie, he was never as dynamic as Toews imo.
 
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RapidKnight

Registered User
Dec 29, 2021
995
565
What if you close the gap like Robert Hagg aka Boss Hogg and go for a check out of position and totally miss the check while closing the gap and let the player you were lining up blow by you.
Slavin doesn’t totally miss in fact he doesn’t even hit, he just takes the puck. The shot statistics and takeaways show that. What if you try to block but you own goal (I believe you still get credit for a block).
 

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
10,795
7,339
Quinn Hughes should be #6 ahead of Letang and even that is being modest. If Hughes and Makar switched teams, they would basically have had the production that the other guy had. Realistically speaking, Hughes and Makar are tied as being the best defensemen in the league, but I'll try and be a bit modest here.
I didn’t want to be the one to tell you this but your bias towards Quinn Hughes is showing.

Maybe you should go back and watch Cale Makar’s 21-22 season + Playoffs.
 

Maurice of Orange

13:21 🏒🏒
Feb 5, 2016
10,795
7,339
Slavin doesn’t totally miss in fact he doesn’t even hit, he just takes the puck. The shot statistics and takeaways show that. What if you try to block but you own goal (I believe you still get credit for a block).
Jaccob Slavin is so slick defensively there really isn’t many players to compare him too presently, maybe Brodin or Pelech but Slavin is the goods at the blueline.
 

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