NHL monitoring teams’ income-tax advantages, but ‘there are no easy fixes’

[LOFIN]

UFAs sure, but they're getting 10-20% discounts on virtually every re-signing. It's definitely not nothing

f***ing bullshit lol

 

[Empoleon8771]

Its coming from American teams too.

I think people aren't highlighting the fact that we had a flat cap from about 2020 to this offseason. With less growth in the cap, being able to maximize cap space became more important.

No it isn't. Daley literally says the chatter is coming out of Canadian markets and it's always Canadian fans on here complaining about it.

 

[Sol]

“Monitoring” aka we know it’s a problem but who cares

 

[oXo Cube]

Even if you think this is a big edge some teams have over others I don't understand what anyone expects the league to do about this. Tax policy is(or at least should be) way above the pay grade of a sports league. It is what it is.

There are several obvious cap exploiting loopholes that are worthy of fan criticism but this one ain't it.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Is it a great excuse for California and New York teams as well.

Since the last time a Canadian franchise won a Cup, California has earned three rings and the greater New York metro area has earned four.



You really don't think before you type.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Since the last time a Canadian franchise won a Cup, California has earned three rings and the greater New York metro area has earned four.

New York City is also one of the most expensive places to live in North America. Is the league doing a cost of living cap adjustment too?

 

[AvroArrow]

Since the last time a Canadian franchise won a Cup, California has earned three rings and the greater New York metro area has earned four.



You really don't think before you type.

Cap came in 2005-06

ironic

 

[Jared Dunn]

f***ing bullshit lol

Yeah Forsling, Reinhart, Point, Kucherov etc. are definitely market value deals

 

[Shane Diesel]

Cap came in 2005-06

ironic

We aren't talking about the cap, we're talking about income taxes.

Stop moving the goal posts.

A for effort with the "gotcha" post, though.

 

[AvroArrow]

We aren't talking about the cap, we're talking about income taxes.

Stop moving the goal posts.

Income taxes would have been irrelevant for big money teams pre-cap. If Tampa offers Kuch 9m, Toronto offers him 15-16m

No ones moving goal posts, you made a shitty argument while trying to shit on someone. Stop crying about it.

The whole reason we're discussing income taxes is BECAUSE there is a salary cap limiting how much teams can spend lmao

 

[Shane Diesel]

Income taxes would have been irrelevant for big money teams pre-cap. If Tampa offers Kuch 9m, Toronto offers him 15-16m

Pre-cap there were only a handful of teams that could to offer contracts like that. Teams like Toronto and NYR were the exceptions not the rule. Not every team pre-cap could just up salary to make up the difference. You're full of shit.

I guess we all forgot the early to mid-90s when Canadian teams couldn't keep their talent in free agency and were crying poor. Why wasn't Calgary and Winnipeg just writing checks to make up the difference?

Oh, it's because only about five or six teams could write blank checks.

No ones moving goal posts, you made a shitty argument while trying to shit on someone. Stop crying about it.

I did? Pointing out American teams with high taxes and high cost of living winning Cups is a bad argument? Please elaborate. Seems like you're the one upset and are waving away my argument because it destroys the whole "poor Canada" argument.

The whole reason we're discussing income taxes is BECAUSE there is a salary cap limiting how much teams can spend lmao

Your premise is totally wrong, pre-cap only a handful of teams could afford to write blank checks. Same as it is now. You don't know your history.

The cap was to give owners cost certainty. Nothing more, nothing less.

But hey, if you want to die on the '05/'06 hill it's:

California + New York - 3
Canada - 0

 

[Barrie22]

Even if you think this is a big edge some teams have over others I don't understand what anyone expects the league to do about this. Tax policy is(or at least should be) way above the pay grade of a sports league. It is what it is.

There are several obvious cap exploiting loopholes that are worthy of fan criticism but this one ain't it.

Make the cap based on actual salary after reductions from income tax.

If someone was looking to be paid 5 million a year, it is easier for an owner to find 5 million in a zero taxed area then it is for a owner in a place that has a high income tax that is like 40%. It is nearly a 3-4 million per year difference.

 

[Captain Mountain]

No it isn't. Daley literally says the chatter is coming out of Canadian markets and it's always Canadian fans on here complaining about it.

Lets ignore the fact that the article cited is literally from an American publication written by an American and said publication has generally had American's write about this topic.

Lets also ignore when its covered by Americans like here: NHL free agency shows teams in states with no income tax have an advantage

Or ignore when fans of American teams complain about it here.

The consensus here and elsewhere from informal polls and what players have said is that it is a competitive advantage, that its not a significant competitive advantage. There are a number of teams in the US that have fewer tax advantages than the Oilers, Flames and Jets. To say nothing of tax planning options that are available in Canada vs. the US.

Why you look at one article quoting one American on a Canadian team, ignore nuance and just be so lazy in commenting? Or have you never even listened to sports radio in the US to think that this is a Canadian thing only?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lets ignore the fact that the article cited is literally from an American publication written by an American and said publication has generally had American's write about this topic.

Lets also ignore when its covered by Americans like here: NHL free agency shows teams in states with no income tax have an advantage

Or ignore when fans of American teams complain about it here.

The consensus here and elsewhere from informal polls and what players have said is that it is a competitive advantage, that its not a significant competitive advantage. There are a number of teams in the US that have fewer tax advantages than the Oilers, Flames and Jets. To say nothing of tax planning options that are available in Canada vs. the US.

Why you look at one article quoting one American on a Canadian team, ignore nuance and just be so lazy in commenting? Or have you never even listened to sports radio in the US to think that this is a Canadian thing only?

Lmao what kind of argument is this? Daley literally said verbatim that the complaints about the tax advantages are specifically coming from Canadian franchises about how Canadian franchises are disadvantaged. The fact that it was published by the Athletic has literally no relevance here.

You're the one that's arbitrarily saying "American fans complain about it too!" without providing any evidence of that. The reality is what everyone knows: the overwhelming majority of complaints about the unfairness from income taxes is coming from Canadian fans and Canadian media. That is a factual statement.

 

[Lacaar]

This feels like you intend it to be a dunk, but it's important to realize (and is pointed out in every thread on the topic) that income taxes are not the only advantage/disadvantage that certain markets have, and possibly not even the most meaningful one.

So now it's acknowledged but played down?

Care to provide what may possibly be the most meaningful one? Seems quite vague and open ended.

7/10 finalists is getting into finals. From your comment that advantage is no solely because of cap which I can agree. But I'm really interested to hear what you think is possibly the most meaningful advantages those teams have?

 

[BLNY]

There are tax planning/sheltering schemes in some jurisdictions that are advantageous but take years or decades to show benefit. It truly is not that simple.

That's on the player. Not the team. Gross salary (AAV) minus income taxes. Bang.

 

[LOFIN]

Yeah Forsling, Reinhart, Point, Kucherov etc. are definitely market value deals

Aside from Kucherov, yes they are. The fact that there are other players around the league who are overpaid is another issue.

Actually, even the Kucherov deal wasn't that much of a hometown discount when he signed it. One 100 point season when he signed, and before that just one season with +PPG.

 

[Peasy]

No it isn't. Daley literally says the chatter is coming out of Canadian markets and it's always Canadian fans on here complaining about it.

No where in the article does it state what teams have brought up this issue in their meetings. All he says is that theres obviously chatter out there in the media, specifically the canadian markets (are you really surprised? Canadian media market for hockey is just on another level compared to whats in the states, just look at the media that constantly gets posted on this site).

Youre drawing conclusions without all the answers and information.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Lmao what kind of argument is this? Daley literally said verbatim that the complaints about the tax advantages are specifically coming from Canadian franchises about how Canadian franchises are disadvantaged. The fact that it was published by the Athletic has literally no relevance here.

You're the one that's arbitrarily saying "American fans complain about it too!" without providing any evidence of that. The reality is what everyone knows: the overwhelming majority of complaints about the unfairness from income taxes is coming from Canadian fans and Canadian media. That is a factual statement.

Read the quote you quoted:

Obviously there’s chatter out there, specifically in the Canadian media, that the Canadian franchises are disadvantaged.

You then decided that meant Daly said its coming from Canadian teams (it doesn't). I said its coming from American teams too.

You then decided to take an incredibly extreme position and call out fans and media without sources either, as if you've ignored when American fans complain about this too, as if only Canadian fans want their favourite team to not be disadvantaged (and that disadvantage is way overstated anyways).

 

[ijuka]

If the owners really had a problem with the current situation they would just abandon the cap entirely. They didn't deprive us of an an entire season and a half of hockey just so they could get rid of the cap a decade later once a few people started complaining.

Cost certainty is what the owners wanted, not competitive balance. If it's advantageous to small market teams with lower taxes so be it.

Competitive balance absolutely is what they wanted. Cap is the only reason like half the teams in the league can even exist.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It's a thing, sure, but I think it's overblown. If Matthews was a free agent, would he take less money than he is making with Toronto in lower tax place? Doubtful. Drai would be making 14-15 M on the cap anywhere in the NHL. Goalie Bob would take up more than 10M in cap space if he signed with NYR? Or in California? Or somewhere in Canada? Instead of signing in Florida? I don't think so.

Matthews likely makes more money from Toronto in side deals (Advertising) than he could signing in a non-tax area.

... Not to mention isn't there some speculation that Toronto's stars are signing bonus loaded because it's paid out during the summer when they're technically living (And taxed) somewhere other than Toronto?

 

[Jared Dunn]

Aside from Kucherov, yes they are. The fact that there are other players around the league who are overpaid is another issue.

Actually, even the Kucherov deal wasn't that much of a hometown discount when he signed it. One 100 point season when he signed, and before that just one season with +PPG.

How can I take this seriously. Forsling $5.75 is market value? What in the world are you talking about, literal unanimous reaction was "wow that's a steal"

 

[JPT]

I was just thinking about how we needed another 40+ pages of tax discussion for September.

 

[Idiot Stick]

How can I take this seriously. Forsling $5.75 is market value? What in the world are you talking about, literal unanimous reaction was "wow that's a steal"

thats just Zito magic


but i guess we gotta return the 30 cups we won being so benefited by taxes

 

[LOFIN]

How can I take this seriously. Forsling $5.75 is market value? What in the world are you talking about, literal unanimous reaction was "wow that's a steal"

It's maybe 0.75M less than what his perceived value is.