NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[GKJ]

Its not Bama or even BYU but its still something that draws some attention and dollars.

If you put an NBA team in Pittsburgh, I would bet that it would do fine. But one of my things I say about expansion is whether or not it expands the footprint. Not as much as other markets would.

 

[KevFu]

If you put an NBA team in Pittsburgh, I would bet that it would do fine. But one of my things I say about expansion is whether or not it expands the footprint. Not as much as other markets would.

Yeah, I think a major pro team anywhere in the top 75 markets would be "Fine" in terms of not going bankrupt. It's only a case of "are they making enough money relative to everyone else?"


Also, if you're Quebec and the NHL adds teams in Atlanta, Houston and Phoenix, you have to be NOT PISSED, but really happy that the NHL is 9-9-9-8 and has a HOLE in the east and not many major markets to possibly go to to fill that spot.

If you're the Quebec would-be owner, you start making calls to WAS, TB, FLA, ATL, CAR, CBJ, DET, CHI, NASH, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJD, TOR, BUF, DAL, HOU and point out that they'd prefer Quebec over an expansion team in

1C. Greater Toronto
20. Baltimore
21. Orlando
22. Charlotte
24. San Antonio
26. Austin
30. Cincinnati
33. Cleveland
34. Indianapolis - NBA arena seats 11,651 for hockey
37. Virginia Beach
38. Jacksonville
39. Providence
40. Milwaukee
43. Louisville
44. Richmond
45. Memphis
49. Grand Rapids
51. Hartford
53. Rochester
9C. Hamilton

Adding Atlanta and Houston moves Quebec closer, not further away.

 

[GKJ]

Yeah, I think a major pro team anywhere in the top 75 markets would be "Fine" in terms of not going bankrupt. It's only a case of "are they making enough money relative to everyone else?"


Also, if you're Quebec and the NHL adds teams in Atlanta, Houston and Phoenix, you have to be NOT PISSED, but really happy that the NHL is 9-9-9-8 and has a HOLE in the east and not many major markets to possibly go to to fill that spot.

If you're the Quebec would-be owner, you start making calls to WAS, TB, FLA, ATL, CAR, CBJ, DET, CHI, NASH, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJD, TOR, BUF, DAL, HOU and point out that they'd prefer Quebec over an expansion team in

1C. Greater Toronto
20. Baltimore
21. Orlando
22. Charlotte
24. San Antonio
26. Austin
30. Cincinnati
33. Cleveland
34. Indianapolis - NBA arena seats 11,651 for hockey
37. Virginia Beach
38. Jacksonville
39. Providence
40. Milwaukee
43. Louisville
44. Richmond
45. Memphis
49. Grand Rapids
51. Hartford
53. Rochester
9C. Hamilton

Adding Atlanta and Houston moves Quebec closer, not further away.

Cincinnati would be the one to worry about, because a group would likely own a new arena, and there is no NBA threat there.

 

[KevFu]

Cincinnati would be the one to worry about, because a group would likely own a new arena, and there is no NBA threat there.

Yeah, but the whole point of Columbus was you give the state of Ohio one team, and they can have fans from Cleveland to Cincinnati, and not have two "small market teams" like they are in baseball and football.

The NHL's expansion successes have been places that they either (a) got to first or second or (b) are massive markets getting their 4th team.

Being the third team in Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, etc makes no sense. Being the first team in Quebec makes a lot more sense.

Plus I think there's gonna be some "Legacy shopping" for Bettman on his way out. Like if he makes Quebec the #36 team, even if the NHL sacrifices opportunity cost selling an expansion team to someone else... then he's leaving behind a league with nine more markets than when he took over, only ONE city who lost a team, six Top 20 markets added, etc, etc.

It's the perfect thing to be his second to last announcement, with his last being retirement.

 

[GKJ]

Yeah, but the whole point of Columbus was you give the state of Ohio one team, and they can have fans from Cleveland to Cincinnati, and not have two "small market teams" like they are in baseball and football.

The NHL's expansion successes have been places that they either (a) got to first or second or (b) are massive markets getting their 4th team.

Being the third team in Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, etc makes no sense. Being the first team in Quebec makes a lot more sense.

Plus I think there's gonna be some "Legacy shopping" for Bettman on his way out. Like if he makes Quebec the #36 team, even if the NHL sacrifices opportunity cost selling an expansion team to someone else... then he's leaving behind a league with nine more markets than when he took over, only ONE city who lost a team, six Top 20 markets added, etc, etc.

It's the perfect thing to be his second to last announcement, with his last being retirement.

The idea that they think they can in an implicit shot over the bow that they do not identify with Columbus, and they have not been a good enough franchise, for 25 years now, to demand that attention. The Blue Jackets have been more invested in Cleveland.

 

[squashmaple]

The idea that they think they can in an implicit shot over the bow that they do not identify with Columbus, and they have not been a good enough franchise, for 25 years now, to demand that attention. The Blue Jackets have been more invested in Cleveland.

Another thing to consider is MLS put a franchise in Cincinnati even though Columbus already had one, and it's been very successful down to a built-in rivalry with the Crew called the Hell is Real Cup after a famous billboard visible on the highway between the two cities. Columbus in general trends culturally much more closely with Cleveland in my experience as a NE Ohio native in Columbus, especially with sports. Cleveland is the Blue Jackets AHL affiliate while Columbus is the Guardians AAA affiliate. Anecdotally as a thirtysomething who only left working in bars since the pandemic, I also know far more Browns fans than I do Bengals fans even with the Burrow effect (probably because SE Ohioans are usually Steelers fans). Cincinnati is basically Kentucky. If there's determined rich local ownership, an acceptable arena, and instant success (even if it's just Seattle-level success), the Blue Jackets' existence will have absolutely no affect on a Cincinnati NHL club.

 

[Tawnos]

Yeah, but the whole point of Columbus was you give the state of Ohio one team, and they can have fans from Cleveland to Cincinnati, and not have two "small market teams" like they are in baseball and football.

The NHL's expansion successes have been places that they either (a) got to first or second or (b) are massive markets getting their 4th team.

Being the third team in Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, etc makes no sense. Being the first team in Quebec makes a lot more sense.

Plus I think there's gonna be some "Legacy shopping" for Bettman on his way out. Like if he makes Quebec the #36 team, even if the NHL sacrifices opportunity cost selling an expansion team to someone else... then he's leaving behind a league with nine more markets than when he took over, only ONE city who lost a team, six Top 20 markets added, etc, etc.

It's the perfect thing to be his second to last announcement, with his last being retirement.

And they discovered that giving a whole state a team, ignoring individual markets, doesn't really work in reality as well as it does in theory. Columbus is a big enough market on its own to justify having a team there, though, so it's not a problem.

As for ATL and HOU giving QC a better chance... I really don't think they do. The markets you listed aren't the most likely of the #36 options in the US, with maybe the exception of Austin... As I've said before, IMO, the most likely thing team 36 does is move a CST team into the Eastern Conference. Either Nashville or Chicago, more likely Nashville. Austin would do the same thing too.

 

[StreetHawk]

If you put an NBA team in Pittsburgh, I would bet that it would do fine. But one of my things I say about expansion is whether or not it expands the footprint. Not as much as other markets would.

With Pitt, have to consider their arena situation since the NBA did expansion. Minny, Charlotte, Miami, Orlando, then Toronto, Vancouver.

Clearly went older barns before Canada so guess they didn't view Pitt with Mellon as good an option as the other 4. PPG Paints Arena came along in 2010 and all of the last moves to Memphis, NO, OKC were done before then I believe.

Pitt not getting a team over LV/SEA. Not sure they would be one of the next 2 should the NBA either relocate a team or expand after 32 teams.

 

[GKJ]

With Pitt, have to consider their arena situation since the NBA did expansion. Minny, Charlotte, Miami, Orlando, then Toronto, Vancouver.

Clearly went older barns before Canada so guess they didn't view Pitt with Mellon as good an option as the other 4. PPG Paints Arena came along in 2010 and all of the last moves to Memphis, NO, OKC were done before then I believe.

Pitt not getting a team over LV/SEA. Not sure they would be one of the next 2 should the NBA either relocate a team or expand after 32 teams.

It’s very true, but as far as I know, you don’t even hear a conversation about them. NBA expansion talk is much more focused though on where they intend to be.

Another thing to consider is MLS put a franchise in Cincinnati even though Columbus already had one, and it's been very successful down to a built-in rivalry with the Crew called the Hell is Real Cup after a famous billboard visible on the highway between the two cities. Columbus in general trends culturally much more closely with Cleveland in my experience as a NE Ohio native in Columbus, especially with sports. Cleveland is the Blue Jackets AHL affiliate while Columbus is the Guardians AAA affiliate. Anecdotally as a thirtysomething who only left working in bars since the pandemic, I also know far more Browns fans than I do Bengals fans even with the Burrow effect (probably because SE Ohioans are usually Steelers fans). Cincinnati is basically Kentucky. If there's determined rich local ownership, an acceptable arena, and instant success (even if it's just Seattle-level success), the Blue Jackets' existence will have absolutely no affect on a Cincinnati NHL club.

They need to build the arena and any investor or owner will want a main tenant. Does it change the footprint though? Would be much more business sense to go to San Diego and move Nashville east

 

[StreetHawk]

They need to build the arena and any investor or owner will want a main tenant. Does it change the footprint though? Would be much more business sense to go to San Diego and move Nashville east

NHL would be short 1 PST/MST team even after AZ returns. So, a team in the CST time zone would have to play with them in a 6x6 setup. One of Win, Min, STL as they would keep Dal/Hou together.

That's really the main benefit of adding Portland/SD would be as team 36. Not sure market size wise the NHL intends to go to one of those places. 2 teams in SoCal and now with Seattle, NHL may not be as keen on Portland and that is a ways away until Jody Allen sells the Blazers and Moda. Moda is 29 years old and hasn't had a major renovation in that time. City is buying the arena back from Allen and extended lease by 5 years to 2030.

 

[GKJ]

NHL would be short 1 PST/MST team even after AZ returns. So, a team in the CST time zone would have to play with them in a 6x6 setup. One of Win, Min, STL as they would keep Dal/Hou together.

That's really the main benefit of adding Portland/SD would be as team 36. Not sure market size wise the NHL intends to go to one of those places. 2 teams in SoCal and now with Seattle, NHL may not be as keen on Portland and that is a ways away until Jody Allen sells the Blazers and Moda. Moda is 29 years old and hasn't had a major renovation in that time. City is buying the arena back from Allen and extended lease by 5 years to 2030.

San Diego is not the same as SoCal just because they’re south of Los Angeles. It’s part of the 12th largest metro on the continent.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Again, I would go with San Diego before Phoenix. I know the Ducks will be mad, but the issues Phoenix had would not be there in San Diego.

 

[StreetHawk]

Again, I would go with San Diego before Phoenix. I know the Ducks will be mad, but the issues Phoenix had would not be there in San Diego.

Unlike the relocation where they landed in phx to a 4 year old building that was not nhl capable the nhl isn’t returning without an arena. So if there isn’t one that will be ready (ie, ishiba and Phx opting for another Reno of footprint) then the nhl likely not back to AZ.

SD, is the corporate base sufficient?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Unlike the relocation where they landed in phx to a 4 year old building that was not nhl capable the nhl isn’t returning without an arena. So if there isn’t one that will be ready (ie, ishiba and Phx opting for another Reno of footprint) then the nhl likely not back to AZ.

SD, is the corporate base sufficient?

I think SD has more corporations but probably they would market all over southern California and northern Mexico.

 

[Headshot77]

I think Pittsburgh would be a good "grow the game" candidate for the NBA. There isn't a ton of basketball culture here but it IS there and I think we have the population and demographics for it. Pittsburgh is also a city that "punches above its weight" in terms of sports fandom. I think an NBA team here would not be a problem. That being said, I think Pittsburgh isn't as appealing as SEA or LV.

Maybe they can be a relocation destination for the a team like the Pelicans.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Yeah, I think a major pro team anywhere in the top 75 markets would be "Fine" in terms of not going bankrupt. It's only a case of "are they making enough money relative to everyone else?"


Also, if you're Quebec and the NHL adds teams in Atlanta, Houston and Phoenix, you have to be NOT PISSED, but really happy that the NHL is 9-9-9-8 and has a HOLE in the east and not many major markets to possibly go to to fill that spot.

If you're the Quebec would-be owner, you start making calls to WAS, TB, FLA, ATL, CAR, CBJ, DET, CHI, NASH, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJD, TOR, BUF, DAL, HOU and point out that they'd prefer Quebec over an expansion team in

1C. Greater Toronto
20. Baltimore
21. Orlando
22. Charlotte
24. San Antonio
26. Austin
30. Cincinnati
33. Cleveland
34. Indianapolis - NBA arena seats 11,651 for hockey
37. Virginia Beach
38. Jacksonville
39. Providence
40. Milwaukee
43. Louisville
44. Richmond
45. Memphis
49. Grand Rapids
51. Hartford
53. Rochester
9C. Hamilton

Adding Atlanta and Houston moves Quebec closer, not further away.

What is 1c and 9c? 1st in Canada and 9th in Canada by population?

 

[dj4aces]

That's really the main benefit of adding Portland/SD would be as team 36. Not sure market size wise the NHL intends to go to one of those places.

The biggest question: Does either SD or PDX have suitors? Fans keep bringing those two cities up, but there's not even any whispers about anyone rumored to be trying.

 

[StreetHawk]

The biggest question: Does either SD or PDX have suitors? Fans keep bringing those two cities up, but there's not even any whispers about anyone rumored to be trying.

Portland, won’t until Allen sells the Blazers. She won’t be adding another pro team.
SD, only Heard about Kroenke being part of the team that is looking to build a new arena to replace the one that the Ahl gulls play. City needs a new one for concerts anyways. Main decision they need to make is how large. Could be 14K without a pro team or 17k with nhl or nba. As for potential owner who knows.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

The biggest question: Does either SD or PDX have suitors? Fans keep bringing those two cities up, but there's not even any whispers about anyone rumored to be trying.

As for Portland, in addition to the Jody Allen situation (and the fact that any potential NHL owners are probably also sitting their hands waiting fort hat to shake out as they are potential Blazers owners, too), I also read something in the last couple of days that the city is going through some potential restructuring of the government, I think on the ballot.

The article I read mad it clear it is just who is in the positions (normal election stuff), but what positions have what and how much power. If the article was correct, at least part of the reason for the potential restructuring was loss of tax revenues due to people and companies leaving Portland proper. The article provided some numbers, and whether it is a major reason for the power fight, losing tax revenue does not spur support expenditures on an arena.

I don't think anything is needed for Moda to house an NHL team, but it might cause the NHL to think twice about going into a 30-year old arena with little chance of upgrading it in the foreseeable future, whether the restructuring effort is successful or not.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

Maybe I want the city and the team Houston.

Thirty-three teams would be nice.

Thirty-two teams is also nice.

 

[Jets4Life]

Quebec City is only the 7th largest metro area in Canada, and wouldn't crack the top 50 in the US. (it looks like it would come in the 70s).

*8th largest.

Winnipeg metro area has almost 50,000 more people than Quebec City metro.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

A new Canadian city and team in the NHL would be nice, but only as NHL team 33.

Instead of the American city Houston.

What Canadian cities options are available?

 

[Imgoingtowork]

There are only seven cities and teams from Canada in the NHL.

The rest is American cities and teams in the NHL.

Of thirty-two teams.

 

[Tawnos]

Portland, won’t until Allen sells the Blazers. She won’t be adding another pro team.
SD, only Heard about Kroenke being part of the team that is looking to build a new arena to replace the one that the Ahl gulls play. City needs a new one for concerts anyways. Main decision they need to make is how large. Could be 14K without a pro team or 17k with nhl or nba. As for potential owner who knows.

There was a report earlier this year citing one of his top executives saying that Kroenke is looking to bring an NHL team there. Obviously, he can't own both an SD team and the Avs. There was some talk about his son being the owner of one or the other.

But it could also simply be that Kroenke has the connections and willingness to recruit an owner for the market.