NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[BMN]

True, though moving the Atlanta Braves to the burbs seems to have worked pretty well too

They basically had to build a Mini city to do it.

For many sports owners, building the mini city is actually the point.

 

[Tawnos]

I mean... I guess, if you insist. I'm simply pointing out that relegation isn't going to work. Fans won't accept it, and owners would never approve of it anyway. So if that's your only idea, then I suppose we'll have exactly that.

They won't but to the conversation, we're definitely approaching a ceiling here. I was mentioning the other day... continuing to increase franchise values is the goal here, and because of that the NHL isn't going to be looking to expand just anywhere. There simply aren't that many valuable markets left to tap. IMO, we're not looking at any markets with a MSA of under 2 million people. And then I don't think we're looking at any existing NBA markets of under 3 million unless there's some X factor allowing for both to exist. We'll see if that prediction of mine turns out true. It definitely isn't going to be 50 teams. 40 maybe.

Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix we've discussed.
Inland Empire, CA isn't somewhere that any of the big leagues have considered yet. The population isn't really centralized, so it's hard to envision.
San Diego
Baltimore is unlikely
Portland has a bit of an X factor with its hockey history and general feeling that the market is underserved (though the latter would change if they got MLB)
Austin
Cincinnati is unlikely
Kansas City

That's it. 7 markets plus maybe 1 more Canadian teams if they can overcome the issues we've discussed ad nauseum. I don't see Orlando, Charlotte, San Antonio, Sacramento, Cleveland, or Indianapolis as having any kind of X factor to be 2-league indoor winter sports cities. Though some of those might be possible in 15-20 years. Orlando, Charlotte, and San Antonio in particular.

It's also a bit of an open question on whether or not the NHL would want to max out the viable markets. Those first three are top-10 markets in terms of size in the United States, so the effect on franchise values league-wide with successful teams there could be significant. The rest would end up with a more limited impact.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I know you're excited about this (I also think Houston is 1st in line for a team), but don't you think an AHL team in San Antonio makes more sense? They already proved they can support one for almost 20 years until Vegas bought and moved the Rampage a few years back.

Put an ECHL club in Katy.

San Antonio's ownership group doesn't want anything to do with hockey. They control the arena. It's why they sold the Rampage to begin with and I believe they were trying to get more into soccer based on their activity over the last five years.

As long as they control the arena, San Antonio isn't an option. That is despite being a desirable market from at a glimpse

 

[dj4aces]

They won't but to the conversation, we're definitely approaching a ceiling here. I was mentioning the other day... continuing to increase franchise values is the goal here, and because of that the NHL isn't going to be looking to expand just anywhere. There simply aren't that many valuable markets left to tap. IMO, we're not looking at any markets with a MSA of under 2 million people. And then I don't think we're looking at any existing NBA markets of under 3 million unless there's some X factor allowing for both to exist. We'll see if that prediction of mine turns out true. It definitely isn't going to be 50 teams. 40 maybe.

Oh yeah, we're for sure approaching a ceiling. I just never claimed we should go to 50.

After the league goes to 36, I see further expansion as unlikely. Franchise values and the cost of buying in will become too great to consider, and that's gonna be the "soft cap". If more than 36 happens, cool, and I'll be the first to welcome those new teams and fans to the league... but I think 36 will be it. HOU and ATL now, PHX and a lucky market to be named in ~10 years.

To that other guy's point, I find a "second division" interesting, but just wanna know how that's supposed to work under the confines of the North American sports landscape. Based on the reaction to relegation being off the table though, it sounded like that's the only ball they came to play with, and I popped it.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

36 is the target, but I'll always stand by my opinion that if someone flashes the NHL a ten-figure check, expansion will be back on the menu even after that.

 

[dj4aces]

36 is the target, but I'll always stand by my opinion that if someone flashes the NHL a ten-figure check, expansion will be back on the menu even after that.

By the time we reach 36, it might take an eleven-figure check to get their attention!

 

[These Are The Days]

I know you're excited about this (I also think Houston is 1st in line for a team), but don't you think an AHL team in San Antonio makes more sense? They already proved they can support one for almost 20 years until Vegas bought and moved the Rampage a few years back.

Put an ECHL club in Katy.

San Antonio may be a very good option for the 36th team. Assuming a Quebec City owner has the money, San Antonio, Houston and Atlanta make sense. If San Diego wanted to go and build a new arena I'd say they are another fantastic idea. Portland too but I suppose a prospective owner would've said something by now.

 

[StreetHawk]

For many sports owners, building the mini city is actually the point.

Does that make it difficult to sell off the team later where a new owner would find it difficult to be financially viable if they don't own the mini city?

Owners will come and go. Be in 10, 20, 30 years time. All of SJ, TB, Ott, Ana, Fla, Nas, Min, Atl, have been sold. Only. CBJ where original owner died, passed onto his son, have not been sold.

 

[OG6ix]

It's pretty refreshing to see how in-demand NHL franchises are. For a while there they were dogs with fleas before and right after the 2005 lockout.

It also helps when NBA franchises are so costly and MLB franchises don't necessarily work in medium to smaller markets.

 

[Yukon Joe]

36 is the target, but I'll always stand by my opinion that if someone flashes the NHL a ten-figure check, expansion will be back on the menu even after that.

I continue to think that expansion will always be "on the table" if a potentially owner steps forward willing to pay an ever-increasing amount for a franchise.

League may have little interest in going to, say, Austin, but if someone waves $1.5 billion under their noses watch how fast they put a team there.

And part of the reason is the cold, hard cash ($1.5 bil split 32 ways is almost $47 million per team), but the fact it sets a new benchmark for franchise values, and thus increases the value of every other team in the league.

 

[OG6ix]

If they expand to 34 I think they should get rid of conferences and just go 1-16 with the best teams in the league by points.

`

Eastern Division

Boston

Montreal

New York Rangers

New York Islanders

New Jersey Devils

Philadelphia Flyers

Pittsburgh Penguins

Central Division

Toronto Maple Leafs

Detroit Red Wings

Chicago Blackhawks

Buffalo Sabres

Columbus Blue Jackets

Minnisota Wild

St Louis Blues

South Division

Nashville Predators

Carolina Hurricanes

Atlanta*

Florida Panthers

Tampa Bay Lightning

Dallas Stars

Houston*

Western Division

Colorado Avalanche

Utah Hockey Club/Yeti

Vegas Golden Knights

LA Kings

Anaheim Ducks

San Jose Sharks

Northwest Division

Winnipeg Jets

Edmonton Oilers

Calgary Flames

Vancouver Canucks

Seattle Kraken

Expand to Portland and San Diego/Arizona to round out the Western/Northwest division (although North West will be the only without 7 or more teams).

My logic was solely based on location in terms of travel plus some natural regional rivals/rivalries that have extended to other sports (e.g. Having the Preds and Atlanta in the same division is very SEC).

 

[Aero 75]

San Antonio's ownership group doesn't want anything to do with hockey. They control the arena. It's why they sold the Rampage to begin with and I believe they were trying to get more into soccer based on their activity over the last five years.

As long as they control the arena, San Antonio isn't an option. That is despite being a desirable market from at a glimpse

The San Antonio Spurs are seeking a new arena and baseball stadium in downtown San Antonio, and could be leaving the Frost Bank Center in a few years. If they do indeed end up moving, that will leave both the Frost Bank Center, and Freeman Coliseum next door, possibly open for a future hockey team. Time will tell.

 

[Aero 75]

OK, so let's say........best case scenario, Houston gets a franchise.

Should it be called the Aeros or the Apollos? Or something else altogether?

Let me know!

Pretty sure Aeros would be the overwhelming favorite nickname amongst Houston hockey fans. Apollos would be a great nickname also, and fits perfectly into Houston's 'Space City' nickname.