NHL.com ranks top 20 centers

[nbwingsfan]

It means that he neutralized Mcdavid. That doesn’t mean he is the BETTER player. Hope that helps

Why bring up such a meaningless point then? lol

 

[dgibb10]

How do get 36% of the time, when 1/2 the time coach had no say on a whistled faceoff, and the rest are on the fly changes.

He's got a perception on this vast impact of Nico being sent out against apparently scrubs.

Never mind the fact that Nico outproduces other elite centers EV in this situation such as JT Miller, Alexander Barkov, or Leon Draisaitl (Barkov is levels ahead defensively, and Leon is a top 3-5 PP weapon in hockey making them much better overal, I think I might take Hischier over Miller tho, although Miller is a level ahead of Suzuki as a PP weapon, and I'd probably have to do a deeper dive overall into him)

 

[NikolaTesla]

How do you get 36% of the time, when 1/2 the time coach had no say on a whistled faceoff, and the rest are on the fly changes.

That seems like some kind of calculation to get 36%

I got the 36% because first liners have around 20-22 mins of icetime per game. That was a gross estimation. Whistled faceoff? What does that mean? Every time the game is stopped and there is a faceoff, the coach can change lines no? Except for icings of course.

The home coach has the last change sure, but the visiting team can still anticipate what line the home team will ice. And "on the fly changes" are helping my point. Sometimes the visiting coach change lines right after faceoff just to oppose the desired line against the current line on the ice. there are plenty of opportunities to match a defensive line against the #1 line.

Any minor difference in QoC (this has been gone over), is cancelled out by offensive vs defensive deployment.

No other "2nd line center" is producing what Hischier does EV.

Not Leon Draisaitl, not JT Miller, not Barkov (the opponent is generally trying to shutdown the Tkachuk line).

Yeah, about that QoC... Not sure what model you take your stats from but Suzuki is at 98% on JFresh:

I think Jfresh is behind a paywall. Id be curious to see Nico's card and what QoC he has there.

 

[NikolaTesla]

It's not all that close.

Here are 2 players on ice results and individual production over the last 2 years

One is Nico Hischier in Even strength situations.
The other is Nick Suzuki in all situations (this includes nearly 600 minutes of power play time to try and help him even things up)

Player A
View attachment 903915View attachment 903916

Player B
View attachment 903917View attachment 903918

Guess who is who

Why don't you put the stats of both in all situations? Thats confusing as hell. Suzuki is the one on bottom i guess. It's hard to compare. Im no expert on advanced stats and don't know all these acronyms. But you need to compare oranges with oranges. One is 5v5 only, the other is all situations... How is this even comparable?

 

[Sentinel]

Zibanejad isn’t even top 100 tbh


Otherwise I like it, finally giving respect to Point he’s a beast

What did he do last year? Or in playoffs? I honestly can't remember.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I got the 36% because first liners have around 20-22 mins of icetime per game. That was a gross estimation. Whistled faceoff? What does that mean? Every time the game is stopped and there is a faceoff, the coach can change lines no? Except for icings of course.

The home coach has the last change sure, but the visiting team can still anticipate what line the home team will ice. And "on the fly changes" are helping my point. Sometimes the visiting coach change lines right after faceoff just to oppose the desired line against the current line on the ice. there are plenty of opportunities to match a defensive line against the #1 line.


Yeah, about that QoC... Not sure what model you take your stats from but Suzuki is at 98% on JFresh:

View attachment 904014

A whistled face off, is a face off as the result of a whistle lol.
So 36% is a made up my number, got it.

 

[NikolaTesla]

A whistled face off, is a face off as the result of a whistle lol.
So 36% is a made up my number, got it.

What the hell are you talking about? What do you think the proportion of 5v5 time that a 1st line is on the ice? Must be close to that, 36% or even higher, which would reinforce my point. But thanks for ignoring my entire post and clinging to that % as if you won the argument.

You're the one pretending that visiting coach can't oppose their best defensive lines against the home team's number 1 line haha.

 

[RoadWarrior]

1 in the playoffs should undo it

The guy was a skeleton in the playoffs who spent the night barfing between games after game 2 in Boston where he mysteriously became ill. It’s a miracle he even dressed for game 7 let alone assist on the go ahead goal in the third. He should start packing lunches for road trips.

 

[dgibb10]

Why don't you put the stats of both in all situations? Thats confusing as hell. Suzuki is the one on bottom i guess. It's hard to compare. Im no expert on advanced stats and don't know all these acronyms. But you need to compare oranges with oranges. One is 5v5 only, the other is all situations... How is this even comparable?

I could use all situations, it's not kind to suzuki.

These are nicos all situation numbers

 

[dgibb10]

I got the 36% because first liners have around 20-22 mins of icetime per game. That was a gross estimation. Whistled faceoff? What does that mean? Every time the game is stopped and there is a faceoff, the coach can change lines no? Except for icings of course.

The home coach has the last change sure, but the visiting team can still anticipate what line the home team will ice. And "on the fly changes" are helping my point. Sometimes the visiting coach change lines right after faceoff just to oppose the desired line against the current line on the ice. there are plenty of opportunities to match a defensive line against the #1 line.


Yeah, about that QoC... Not sure what model you take your stats from but Suzuki is at 98% on JFresh:

View attachment 904014
I think Jfresh is behind a paywall. Id be curious to see Nico's card and what QoC he has there.

Here is Nico's card.



You seem to vastly overestimate the impact of QoC as well, which is understandable, because as you yourself have stated, you don't really understand what any of this means.

Unless you're comparing guys like Arber Xhekaj playing some of the most sheltered minutes in hockey, or a guy like Moritz Seider playing by far the hardest minutes in hockey, QoC does not have the impact you think it does. Especially not to the VAST differences in results that we have seen between the 2

And again, if you know anything about JFresh cards and how these descriptive metrics work, you would know that the overall war of Suzuki is heavily driven by a likely unsustainable 18% shooting% last year

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The guy was a skeleton in the playoffs who spent the night barfing between games after game 2 in Boston where he mysteriously became ill. It’s a miracle he even dressed for game 7 let alone assist on the go ahead goal in the third. He should start packing lunches for road trips.

Yeah man teams are definitely poisoning Matthews to stop his prolific playoff scoring lmfao I have truly seen it all

 

[NikolaTesla]

Here is Nico's card.

View attachment 904023

You seem to vastly overestimate the impact of QoC as well, which is understandable, because as you yourself have stated, you don't really understand what any of this means.

Unless you're comparing guys like Arber Xhekaj playing some of the most sheltered minutes in hockey, or a guy like Moritz Seider playing by far the hardest minutes in hockey, QoC does not have the impact you think it does. Especially not to the VAST differences in results that we have seen between the 2

And again, if you know anything about JFresh cards and how these descriptive metrics work, you would know that the overall war of Suzuki is heavily driven by a likely unsustainable 18% shooting% last year

Yes his stats is probably boosted by his high shooting % but its probably lessened by the fact he played with Anderson other players who shouldnt be on the first line up until mid-december. And its only around February that he started his ppg+ pace, which lasted to the end of the year. That coincided with Slaf's explosion. The card I posted is more than 6 months old, do you have access to up to date cards? If so, can you post Suzuki's? Im curious to see where its at now with the last 2 months of the seasons included (Suzuki finished pretty strong).

Also, about QoL, does 89% means that 11% of players have faced better quality of competition than Hischier? If so, I think theres quite a big difference between 98% and 89%. If there was 1000 nhl players, 20 would have faced better competition than Suzuki, while 110 would have faced better competition than Hischier. Correct me if im wrong if the QoC % doesnt mean that.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Yeah man teams are definitely poisoning Matthews to stop his prolific playoff scoring lmfao I have truly seen it all

Anything is possible in “beantown”.

 

[dgibb10]

Yes his stats is probably boosted by his high shooting % but its probably lessened by the fact he played with players like Anderson others who shouldnt be on the first line up until december. And its only around February that he started his ppg+ pace, which lasted to the end of the year. That coincided with Slaf's explosion. The card I posted is more than 6 months old, do you have access to up to date cards? If so, can you post Suzuki's? Im curious to see where its at now with the last 2 months of the seasons included (Suzuki finished pretty strong).

Also, about QoL, does 89% means that 11% of players have faced better quality of competition than Hischier? If so, I think theres quite a big difference between 98% and 89%. If there was 1000 nhl players, 20 would have faced better competition than Suzuki, while 110 would have faced better competition than Hischier. Correct me if im wrong if the QoC % doesnt mean that.

Hischiers most common Linemates:

Bratt 1000 minutes
Palat 600 minutes
Tatar 600 minutes
Mercer 550 minutes

Suzuki most common linemates

Caufield 1500 minutes
Slafkofsky 800 minutes
Anderson 450 minutes
Dach 400 minutes

as a %ile yes that is approximately what that means, although the amount of qualifying forwards isn't close to 1000

But again, when you look at the actual results of what that difference means it is again.

42.6% of time spent against elite competition

vs

40.1%.

The gap was bigger in 22-23, and in fact Nico actually played against harder competition than suzuki over the past 3 years. Combined over the last 3 years Nico has played 38.1% of his ice time against elite competition compared to 37.6% for Suzuki

 

[Xirik]

Hischiers most common Linemates:

Bratt 1000 minutes
Palat 600 minutes
Tatar 600 minutes
Mercer 550 minutes

Suzuki most common linemates

Caufield 1500 minutes
Slafkofsky 800 minutes
Anderson 450 minutes
Dach 400 minutes

as a %ile yes that is approximately what that means, although the amount of qualifying forwards isn't close to 1000

But again, when you look at the actual results of what that difference means it is again.

42.6% of time spent against elite competition

vs

40.1%.

The gap was bigger in 22-23, and in fact Nico actually played against harder competition than suzuki over the past 3 years. Combined over the last 3 years Nico has played 38.1% of his ice time against elite competition compared to 37.6% for Suzuki

Do a Barrel roll Gibb's! its about time for people to come out of the woodwork and ask why you care so much because they don't like you pointing these things out. Be ready to use the dodge button to make sure this attack misses.

 

[NikolaTesla]

Hischiers most common Linemates:

Bratt 1000 minutes
Palat 600 minutes
Tatar 600 minutes
Mercer 550 minutes

Suzuki most common linemates

Caufield 1500 minutes
Slafkofsky 800 minutes
Anderson 450 minutes
Dach 400 minutes

as a %ile yes that is approximately what that means, although the amount of qualifying forwards isn't close to 1000

But again, when you look at the actual results of what that difference means it is again.

42.6% of time spent against elite competition

vs

40.1%.

The gap was bigger in 22-23, and in fact Nico actually played against harder competition than suzuki over the past 3 years. Combined over the last 3 years Nico has played 38.1% of his ice time against elite competition compared to 37.6% for Suzuki

I meant QoC but typed QoL in one sentence. But what you posted is interesting. Hischier played the most minutes with a ppg player (or very close to ppg). Suzuki never had that luxury. His other linemates weren't all that good though. Well bratt is allright. Much better than Anderson for sure.

Suzuki's minutes spent with Slaf are hard to evaluate because Slaf has only been good since mid-january. I guess thats still a good part of those 800 minutes though because before that Slaf was on other lines. I can't remember if Slaf played with Suzuki in his rookie year, probably a little bit.

About your last paragraph, i don't really care about what happened 2 or 3 years ago. Those are young, ever-evolving players. What matters is their last season. Suzuki has been playing on bottom 5 teams the past 3 years. One of those years they were dead last and plagued with injury.

Also, I doubt QoC takes into consideration if the player is facing a lot of shut down lines, which might not be the best at scoring goals but are good at preventing goals. Also, can you post Suzuki's updated card?

 

[dgibb10]

I meant QoC but typed QoL in one sentence. But what you posted is interesting. Hischier played the most minutes with a ppg player (or very close to ppg). Suzuki never had that luxury. His other linemates weren't all that good though. Well bratt is allright. Much better than Anderson for sure.

Suzuki's minutes spent with Slaf are hard to evaluate because Slaf has only been good since mid-january. I guess thats still a good part of those 800 minutes though because before that Slaf was on other lines. I can't remember if Slaf played with Suzuki in his rookie year, probably a little bit.

About your last paragraph, i don't really care about what happened 2 or 3 years ago. Those are young, ever-evolving players. What matters is their last season. Suzuki has been playing on bottom 5 teams the past 3 years. One of those years they were dead last and plagued with injury.

Also, I doubt QoC takes into consideration if the player is facing a lot of shut down lines, which might not be the best at scoring goals but are good at preventing goals. Also, can you post Suzuki's updated card?

Hischier was better than Suzuki last year too.

This vast overrating of minor differences linemate/competition is a very dangerous game

What happens when you compare Nico to a player like Brayden Point, who gets slightly easier matchups than Nico, but gets to play with Nikita Kucherov. (I picked point because there was a similar gap in points/60 of about 0.5, about the same as the gap between Nico and Suzuki)

Is Nico>Point? f*** NO

Is Suzuki then better than point??? Again, f*** NO

 

[FinlandPanther]

Why bring up such a meaningless point then? lol

Becuase Barkov made him not play like Mcdavid who torched everyone all playoffs.

 

[NikolaTesla]

View attachment 904102

Hischier was better than Suzuki last year too.

This vast overrating of minor differences linemate/competition is a very dangerous game

What happens when you compare Nico to a player like Brayden Point, who gets slightly easier matchups than Nico, but gets to play with Nikita Kucherov. (I picked point because there was a similar gap in points/60 of about 0.5, about the same as the gap between Nico and Suzuki)

Is Nico>Point? f*** NO

Is Suzuki then better than point??? Again, f*** NO

Looks pretty similar to Hischier to me. Both are stronger in some aspects than the other. Suzuki can just get better as the team progress. Finally having a good 2nd line will help his production I'm pretty sure, as well as having established linemates from the beginning of the season and onward. Thanks for posting the updated card. Are those behind a paywall? I bet yeah.

 

[Juxta Position]

The guy was a skeleton in the playoffs who spent the night barfing between games after game 2 in Boston where he mysteriously became ill. It’s a miracle he even dressed for game 7 let alone assist on the go ahead goal in the third. He should start packing lunches for road trips.

Oh that's right, his poor little tum tum was sore in the playoffs, and the year before that it was his wrist had a boo boo, and the year before that it was...what? how about the year before that, and the year before that, or the year before that. Point is there is always an excuse for Matthews from Leafs fans.

Fact is Matthews is the very definition of a one-trick pony. if he's not scoring, he's useless. and yes I know his loose puck retrieval per/60 will come up and his Kris Russell-esq shot blocking acumen, but the reality is that he is a 6'3" 215lb ghost when the games matter the most.

He's had the better part of a decade to prove he can bring it in high pressure situations, and failed spectacularly every time. and the really funny thing is his playoff PPG is literally identical to the player every Leafs fan wants to fire into the Sun right now, Mitch Marner, but yet somehow Matthews is elite and Marner is a bum.

If Matthews played in Columbus or Arizona/Utah he would be around 8-12 on this list, but the Toronto meat puppet media has to dust the balls of their favorite player, and have brain-washed themselves and Leafs fans into thinking he's better than he actually is.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Oh that's right, his poor little tum tum was sore in the playoffs, and the year before that it was his wrist had a boo boo, and the year before that it was...what? how about the year before that, and the year before that, or the year before that. Point is there is always an excuse for Matthews from Leafs fans.

Fact is Matthews is the very definition of a one-trick pony. if he's not scoring, he's useless. and yes I know his loose puck retrieval per/60 will come up and his Kris Russell-esq shot blocking acumen, but the reality is that he is a 6'3" 215lb ghost when the games matter the most.

He's had the better part of a decade to prove he can bring it in high pressure situations, and failed spectacularly every time. and the really funny thing is his playoff PPG is literally identical to the player every Leafs fan wants to fire into the Sun right now, Mitch Marner, but yet somehow Matthews is elite and Marner is a bum.

If Matthews played in Columbus or Arizona/Utah he would be around 8-12 on this list, but the Toronto meat puppet media has to dust the balls of their favorite player, and have brain-washed themselves and Leafs fans into thinking he's better than he actually is.

What a long salty word salad.

His ranking might have something to do with him scoring 69 goals.

 

[Wayfarer13]

Last 3 years

Hischier
222gp 79g 207p +27
58 ES goals
152 ES points
54.4% faceoffs
68 penalties drawn vs 18 taken (+50)

Suzuki
246gp 80g 204p -54
49 ES goals
130 ES points
49.8% faceoffs
73 penalties drawn vs 42 taken (+31)

Hischier is a fair amount better offensively (especially at ES) while being an elite shutdown center.

I would wait say 9 to 10 months and reevaluate your position. I suspect you are going to have a tough season on this.

 

[Xirik]

I would wait say 9 to 10 months and reevaluate your position. I suspect you are going to have a tough season on this.

why?

 

[Wayfarer13]

Suzuki needed to shoot 18% to match Nico’s production. If he doesn’t increase his shot rate, he will likely be around 20-25 goals next year

And he scored 21 of his 33 goals from January 13th on. Caufeild was 17 of his 28 while Slafkovsky was 16 of his 20.Shooting percentage is fine but it only gives a small part of the picture. At their ages the trend is the more important aspect to watch.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Becuase Barkov made him not play like Mcdavid who torched everyone all playoffs.

The bar for McDavid is so high that him not playing like himself is him not breaking the all time finals scoring record lmao