Nah the NHL plays along. Every couple years they'll go on a date with QC to keep stringing her along and get the attention of the girls they're actually interested in.
NHL Board of Governors to approve opening of expansion process; Atlanta and Houston believed to be leading candidates
- Thread starter Koivu11
- Start date
Nah the NHL plays along. Every couple years they'll go on a date with QC to keep stringing her along and get the attention of the girls they're actually interested in.
No, I don’t want to live in a world where half the league has a Cubs like drought while we all have to watch awful hockey because the league expanded way beyond what talent allows…
Somehow people are delusional enough to think the NHL can support 33/36 teams when no other North American major league has that many teams despite all having larger player pools to draw from…
And I don’t want to watch games against teams I have no opinion of at the expense of historical rivals…literally every expansion team harms me as long as we insist on the farcical idea that every team needs to play in every building every year…
Edit to add: I have said my piece in this thread and don't need to derail it any longer. Everyone is of course free to post disagreements to my argument, but I will not be replying in this thread. I would be delighted to engage further if someone wants to create a thread in the Business of Hockey forum.
I am not an accountant, but I have enough university courses in accounting that I can use the fundamental terms properly enough for worthwhile discussions.
The mistake that you and many of the other commenters replying to me are making is that you will only believe it is a Ponzi Scheme once it is so obvious that it cannot be ignored. But I ask you this, what does the beginnings of a Ponzi Scheme look like? Can you imagine a scenario where a legitimate business realizes that the greater fool is willing to pay exorbitant fees for a seat at the table, and start to enjoy the taste of that cash? What happens as this starts to accelerate? Ponzi Schemes don't have to be concocted by snickering thieves in a candlelit cellar and enacted all at once, legitimate businesses can transform and take on aspects of the scam because they are driven by human greed.
As I said in a prior post, the Vegas expansion was in good faith. Seattle too. But here we are just seven years after Vegas has come into the league, and the expansion fee has doubled, franchise values across the league have doubled or tripled, and yet the NHL hasn't actually grown in any meaningful way in that time. Two more teams from 30 is just under 7% growth, which is terrible over seven years and in no way justifies doubling of the balance sheet. Every accountant's alarm bells should be ringing at how fast franchise values have ballooned, and when you trace that back to the expansion payments you should be able to see why I'm crying out Ponzi Scheme.
Expansion is accelerating and I think it's completely obvious that it's because the NHL has completely given up on any other methods of growth and is greedy for the expansion checks. If your growth strategy is to get new people to pay you to buy in and then you share that money around your current investors to boost their balance sheets, that is bog standard Ponzi Scheme. They don't have to continue down this road, they're not at the point where they're committing fraud and Bettman is going to jail for his role in this, but they're absolutely moving towards future lawsuits with these outrageous expansion fees for prospective markets.
I have continuously referred to expansion fees as being factored into franchise values, which as you correctly mentioned, is because the expansion fees DO effect the ROI. $20m in cash appearing on your balance sheet every couple of years is going to drive up your value (Assets = Liabilities + Owner's Equity). I mention profit specifically because I believe it is obvious that a billion dollar franchise value is not supported by the profits that most NHL teams make through activities on the income statements (business value = present value of expected future profits).
I am not an accountant, but I have enough university courses in accounting that I can use the fundamental terms properly enough for worthwhile discussions.
The mistake that you and many of the other commenters replying to me are making is that you will only believe it is a Ponzi Scheme once it is so obvious that it cannot be ignored. But I ask you this, what does the beginnings of a Ponzi Scheme look like? Can you imagine a scenario where a legitimate business realizes that the greater fool is willing to pay exorbitant fees for a seat at the table, and start to enjoy the taste of that cash? What happens as this starts to accelerate? Ponzi Schemes don't have to be concocted by snickering thieves in a candlelit cellar and enacted all at once, legitimate businesses can transform and take on aspects of the scam because they are driven by human greed.
As I said in a prior post, the Vegas expansion was in good faith. Seattle too. But here we are just seven years after Vegas has come into the league, and the expansion fee has doubled, franchise values across the league have doubled or tripled, and yet the NHL hasn't actually grown in any meaningful way in that time. Two more teams from 30 is just under 7% growth, which is terrible over seven years and in no way justifies doubling of the balance sheet. Every accountant's alarm bells should be ringing at how fast franchise values have ballooned, and when you trace that back to the expansion payments you should be able to see why I'm crying out Ponzi Scheme.
Expansion is accelerating and I think it's completely obvious that it's because the NHL has completely given up on any other methods of growth and is greedy for the expansion checks. If your growth strategy is to get new people to pay you to buy in and then you share that money around your current investors to boost their balance sheets, that is bog standard Ponzi Scheme. They don't have to continue down this road, they're not at the point where they're committing fraud and Bettman is going to jail for his role in this, but they're absolutely moving towards future lawsuits with these outrageous expansion fees for prospective markets.
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Voight
#winning
Nope.
Hes distantly related to the Ferttita Brothers who owned the majority of the UFC, like third cousins or something like that.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Personally, I'm an expansion optimist. IMO as long as you have ownership willing to invest in the product and an arena in a suitable location, any market of sufficient size is a sure thing. I'm not just talking about the product on the ice. Strong investment needs to be made in marketing and in the community as well, plus the arena experience needs to be a priority.
I lived in Nashville when they transitioned from Craig Leipold to the new ownership group. In 2008, the team was on shaky ground and there were relocation rumors abound. The new owners put way more effort into marketing, community engagement, and arena experience. Seriously, it was like night and day. The result is the Nashville market as you see it today, stable and strong. I watched the same thing happen in Raleigh when Dundon came around. All of the more successful expansion teams share these qualities.
In other words, while it's not rocket science, it does takes a lot of work to make an expansion team successful and that's especially going to be true in a market with the competition you pointed out. But so long as those things happen, Houston is going to be fine.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Humans have adopted the mentality of a virus. Growth for the sake of it.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
Vegas has been extremely well-received. Seattle seems to have settled into a solid market. Utah looks like they're hyped as all hell.
All things considered, the recent expansions (and Utah) seem to have gone swimmingly for the NHL. There are lot of templates to hit the ground running for new teams nowadays.
All things considered, the recent expansions (and Utah) seem to have gone swimmingly for the NHL. There are lot of templates to hit the ground running for new teams nowadays.
From a Travelling Standpoint, this would be good for those South East and Central(Dallas, Utah, Colorado, St Louis) Team
Might even help with some Divison Realignment
Division 1
Tampa
Florida
Nashville
St Louis
Dallas
Houston
Atlanta
Carolina
Division 2
LA
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado
Utah
Seattle
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Division 3
Winnipeg
Chicago
Minnesota
Chicago
Detroit
Columbus
Toronto
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Division 4
Islanders
Rangers
Devils
Ottawa
Washington
Boston
Montreal
Philadelphia
Might even help with some Divison Realignment
Division 1
Tampa
Florida
Nashville
St Louis
Dallas
Houston
Atlanta
Carolina
Division 2
LA
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado
Utah
Seattle
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Division 3
Winnipeg
Chicago
Minnesota
Chicago
Detroit
Columbus
Toronto
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Division 4
Islanders
Rangers
Devils
Ottawa
Washington
Boston
Montreal
Philadelphia
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
I understand and respect the position people have against expansion. Based on my location, I'm sure folks know that -- even as a Wings fan first -- I have a vested interest in seeing expansion (back) into the Atlanta market.
My gripes are when people don't understand what happened here (and part of that is the fault of publications having this info paywalled *cough*TheAthletic*cough*), or they simply come to conclusions that don't really exist, like the "watering down the product" argument. Sure, a couple teams might take a short-term hit if they didn't anticipate X guy being picked. Expansion drafts are no longer graveyards for bad contracts or over-the-hill players, it's a way for a team to hit the ground running.
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm looking forward to seeing who the Wings expose, and which one of those Atlanta and Houston grab.
Stop diluting the league. It's not even this incredibly popular sport in the USA to keep expanding to new markets like this. There are already teams that struggle packing in fans. I don't get the push.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
Where did you get Canada from? I said it makes sense BECAUSE of the amount of teams already in Canada. When you compare the 4 major pro sports leagues in North America, NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL, the NHL has the lease amount of teams in the United States because they have so many teams in Canada. They have markets they can expand to and have in total more teams than the other leagues if you are comparing total amount of teams in the US itself.
awfulwaffle
Registered User
The obvious answer here is to now have relegation in the NHL. Top of the league is the A squad, then the bottom half is the B squad, and then the top teams in B squad and bottom teams in A squad fight for position in the rightful squad, then the top teams in A squad fight for the stanley cup.
Dale Gribble
Registered User
- Feb 9, 2019
- 441
- 399
In hindsight I'm starting to think that the NHL maybe should have waited for Houston to be ready and move the Yotes there, then expand to Utah and Atlanta. But, the whole arena situation in Arizona probably wouldn't have let that occur.
Still not sold on Atlanta getting a third try though.
Still not sold on Atlanta getting a third try though.
- Jun 23, 2020
- 5,798
- 8,376
Atlanta is the seventh-largest media market and tenth-largest metro area in the United States.
If Bettman seriously proposed that to the owners, they'd have him keelhauled before he even finished his pitch.
Promotion and relegation are a totally alien and impossible concept in the major North American sports market. We will have humans on the surface of Jupiter first.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
wooooo, lets water down an already watered down product for the instant gratification of a 1 time check!
Absurd. If the NHL should expand anywhere its Europe, 31% of the players are European and the populated cities, hockey-knowledge and interest is here too. The NHL is run by a bunch of old jerks
- Jun 23, 2020
- 5,798
- 8,376
"Even the Canucks' place on that list might be temporary because they've only played at home once."
Nice, big data set there.
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
Not a New Yorker, but the Rangers are a distant 4th compared to the Yankees, Knicks and Giants. I would bet that 2nd tier team fandoms for Mets, Jets, and even Nets might exceed the Rangers locally.
I assume the Leafs are by far and away the #1 team in Toronto ahead of the Raptors or Jay's. I think it's fair to say that TOR could support another major team (#4 in the market) compared to 9 teams in the NYC area or 5 teams in Chicago.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 25,238
- 12,855
Probably best to show something more recent, as opposed to a season where at times zero fans were allowed in stadium.
Edit: here is last year.
NHL 2023-24 team attendance at hockeydb.com
Attendance for the National Hockey League for the 2023-24 season
www.hockeydb.com
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Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
Travel would kill any thoughts of a Europe team unless there is an entire division.
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Viqsi
"that chick from Ohio"
This is a better attempt than most by dragging in others, but nonetheless Columbus and Detroit will accept relocation to the West again approximately two million years after hell freezes over.
What they could do is get rid of conferences and have 4 divisions, seat teams 1-4 for the Semifinals(1 plays 4, 2 plays 3). This way you hopefully get the best possible finals
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