NHL Board of Governors to approve opening of expansion process; Atlanta and Houston believed to be leading candidates

cptjeff

Reprehensible User
Sep 18, 2008
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Washington, DC.
The very first sentence of your definition is exactly what is happening with expansion fees.
Read the next couple sentences:

"misleads investors by either falsely suggesting that profits are derived from legitimate business activities (whereas the business activities are non-existent), or by exaggerating the extent and profitability of the legitimate business activities,"

You are simply utterly wrong about what a Ponzi scheme is and how it works. Having expansion fees paid to incumbents does not a ponzi scheme make, such structures are extremely common in legitimate business. A fast food franchising model, for example. It's only a ponzi scheme when those fees are the primary or only source of revenue and the legitimate business model can't sustain the business without continual expansion. That is simply not even remotely close to the case with the NHL. You're not the one sane voice saying the emperor has no clothes, you're the guy ranting to thin air on the subway.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
26,029
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The very first sentence of your definition is exactly what is happening with expansion fees. This is hilarious that you're telling me I don't know what they are when there's one right in front of your eyes.

"(A Ponzi Scheme) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors."

Wow, that sounds exactly like expansion fees, which are paid to earlier teams from more recent investors.

The NHL is not a Ponzi Scheme. Expansion driving franchise values through the roof ARE. A legitimate business can morph into a Ponzi Scheme, while retaining the legitimate portions. This really isn't rocket science, nor is it impossible that one blurs into the other.

I literally do not care that a bunch of people are telling me that I'm using Ponzi Scheme wrong. I know what one is, I know that this expansion is quickly turning into one because the NHL cannot get their hands out of the free money cookie jar, and I am telling you all that the Emperor has no clothes.
You should be popular on Reddit
 

blueandgoldguy

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Oct 8, 2010
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Is Fertitti willing to pay around around $1 billion for a team? He publicly stated he wouldn't pay $650 billion or whatever the amount bandied about for the possible relocation of the Arizona Coyotes a few years ago as he thought that the price was not justified by the revenues.

If we see expansion in the next few years, I suspect we will have play-in games as we have seen implemented in the NBA. Top 6 teams in each conference exempt with the teams 7-10 playing a few extra games to see who qualifies for the round of 16. Maybe they increase the number of games to 84 as well. Come up with an agreement with the NHLPA to split all these additional revenues 50-50. The extra revenues from attendance, tv revenue, ad revenue, concessions, and boosted attendance with more teams having a shot at the play-ins late in the season, I could see this adding several hundred million in revenue to the league's coffers.
 
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tucker3434

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Is Fertitti willing to pay around around $1 billion for a team? He publicly stated he wouldn't pay $650 billion or whatever the amount bandied about for the possible relocation of the Arizona Coyotes a few years ago as he thought that the price was not justified by the revenues.

If we see expansion in the next few years, I suspect we will have play-in games as we have seen implemented in the NBA. Top 6 teams in each conference exempt with the teams 7-10 playing a few extra games to see who qualifies for the round of 16. Maybe they increase the number of games to 84 as well. Come up with an agreement with the NHLPA to split all these additional revenues 50-50. The extra revenues from attendance, tv revenue, ad revenue, concessions, and boosted attendance with more teams having a shot at the play-ins late in the season, I could see this adding several hundred million in revenue to the league's coffers.

Once he saw the Yotes pull in $1b he might have changed his tune. $650m ended up being a bargain.
 

RayMartyniukTotems

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Jul 8, 2022
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I don't see it as a watering down of the Product...there are some good players in the AHL being held down and should be in the NHL and the KHL are getting more and more ex-NHLers who aren't wanted in North America for whatever reasons...besides more and more players could come from Sweden and Finland and Czechia,Slovakia...Love to see a 40-44 team NHL with teams in San Diego,Quebec City for the love of Gesu Cristos. And other places like Milwaukee,Portland,KC,Indianapolis,Hamilton,Oakland,Omaha,Hartford that want and need Hockey NHL style...Common on down Houston...Atlanta well they better make the Expansion as fail proof and idiotproof as possible cause another disaster in Atlanta doesn't bode well... but then again... maybe the NHL could care less about a team "bombing" out they're just after the 1.5-2.0 Billion Expansion fee
 

FoxYou727

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May 12, 2024
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2. Add Seattle depending if they get team be in Pacific or Central division.
This too... honestly if the NHL is going to go past 36+ teams might as well go to markets with no pro sports teams at all so places like Boise, and Hartford makes a lot of sense to me. The NHL being the first pro sports team in Vegas was a HUGE blessing for the leauge regardless of your feelings on the Golden Knights
 

tucker3434

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I don't see it as a watering down of the Product...there are some good players in the AHL being held down and should be in the NHL and the KHL are getting more and more ex-NHLers who aren't wanted in North America for whatever reasons...besides more and more players could come from Sweden and Finland and Czechia,Slovakia...Love to see a 40-44 team NHL with teams in San Diego,Quebec City for the love of Gesu Cristos. And other places like Milwaukee,Portland,KC,Indianapolis,Hamilton,Oakland,Omaha,Hartford that want and need Hockey NHL style...Common on down Houston...Atlanta well they better make the Expansion as fail proof and idiotproof as possible cause another disaster in Atlanta doesn't bode well... but then again... maybe the NHL could care less about a team "bombing" out they're just after the 1.5-2.0 Billion Expansion fee

It’s been said before, but the Thrashers failed because they were sold without an arena attached which prevented local buyers from even attempting a bid. Both of the new proposals have NHL Atlanta as the sole anchor tenant. The next time NHL Atlanta changes hands, the arena will be an incentive to stay rather than the opposite.

~35 years from now when that arena needs an overhaul/replacing, who knows. But they aren’t going to have a ~10 year run again.
 

LeafGrief

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Apr 10, 2015
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Read the next couple sentences:

"misleads investors by either falsely suggesting that profits are derived from legitimate business activities (whereas the business activities are non-existent), or by exaggerating the extent and profitability of the legitimate business activities,"


You are simply utterly wrong about what a Ponzi scheme is and how it works. Having expansion fees paid to incumbents does not a ponzi scheme make, such structures are extremely common in legitimate business. A fast food franchising model, for example. It's only a ponzi scheme when those fees are the primary or only source of revenue and the legitimate business model can't sustain the business without continual expansion. That is simply not even remotely close to the case with the NHL. You're not the one sane voice saying the emperor has no clothes, you're the guy ranting to thin air on the subway.

Fast food franchises pay to the corporate headquarters, not to all of the other McDonalds owners in the area. They do pay some up front licensing fees, but they pay costs throughout the life of the franchise. And if McDonalds started charging $50m for each restaurant which was then divvied up between all the local franchise owners to encourage them to accept more franchises, that absolutely would be a Ponzi Scheme. The NHL isn't pocketing the money from expansion, they're cutting checks for each of the teams in the league. Ponzi Scheme 101, and while your example of franchise fast food is quite clearly wrong, it very nicely illustrates the difference between legitimate and illegitimate.

I believe the league expanded to Vegas in good faith and splitting the money between the existent teams was a valid enough measure of profit sharing. Adding the 33rd and 34th teams less than 10 years later is the Ponzi Scheme taking over.

by exaggerating the extent and profitability of the legitimate business activities,"

They're charging a billion dollars to join the club. You know how long it's going to take any of these teams to make enough profit that it's worth a billion dollars today? Long enough that it's not a good investment. There's no big TV deal on the horizon, it's going to take decades of gate revenues and $20 beers for these franchises to scrape the profit together that's worth anywhere near the billion dollars of their buy-in. A seat at the NHL table is not worth a billion dollars, the profitability is absolutely being exaggerated because those fees are driven by franchise values, which are already being driven up by expansion. It's a self-feeding cycle, expansion causes franchise values to rise, which causes expansion fees to go up, which causes franchise values to rise, etc.

The part about legitimate activities being non existent, the part that you've been hammering away at, is an OR.

"misleads investors by either falsely suggesting that profits are derived from legitimate business activities (whereas the business activities are non-existent), or by exaggerating the extent and profitability of the legitimate business activities,"

There is a legitimate and profitable hockey league, but everything in their financial big picture has gone absolutely squirrely since they started factoring expansion checks into their franchise values.

You're not the one sane voice saying the emperor has no clothes, you're the guy ranting to thin air on the subway.
Cool ad hominem. I never claimed to be sane, but the more we talk, the more I'm sure that I am actually the one who knows what a Ponzi Scheme is.
 

tucker3434

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The very first sentence of your definition is exactly what is happening with expansion fees. This is hilarious that you're telling me I don't know what they are when there's one right in front of your eyes.

"(A Ponzi Scheme) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors."

Wow, that sounds exactly like expansion fees, which are paid to earlier teams from more recent investors.

The NHL is not a Ponzi Scheme. Expansion driving franchise values through the roof ARE. A legitimate business can morph into a Ponzi Scheme, while retaining the legitimate portions. This really isn't rocket science, nor is it impossible that one blurs into the other.

I literally do not care that a bunch of people are telling me that I'm using Ponzi Scheme wrong. I know what one is, I know that this expansion is quickly turning into one because the NHL cannot get their hands out of the free money cookie jar, and I am telling you all that the Emperor has no clothes.

A Ponzi scheme is fraud because the underlying investment doesn’t exist. Unless these owners don’t have title to these franchises, it isn’t a Ponzi scheme.

If you want to argue that it’s a bad investment, fine. But a bad investment isn’t necessarily (or usually) fraud. That’s just overdramatic.
 

Devonator

Registered User
Jan 5, 2003
4,841
2,681
I don't know about this....I think we have to many teams right now....however I do think Houston and Atlanta in a new location should do well.....but honestly, lets get Quebec a team as well and even Hartford.....
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
7,907
10,182
Ottawa
A Ponzi scheme is fraud because the underlying investment doesn’t exist. Unless these owners don’t have title to these franchises, it isn’t a Ponzi scheme.

If you want to argue that it’s a bad investment, fine. But a bad investment isn’t necessarily (or usually) fraud. That’s just overdramatic.
Read the definition the other guy provided. The underlying investment not existing is an OR statement.
 

EMcx2

Registered User
Dec 11, 2021
67
52
I don't know about this....I think we have to many teams right now....however I do think Houston and Atlanta in a new location should do well.....but honestly, lets get Quebec a team as well and even Hartford.....
I'm not convinced that a hockey team in Houston would be a sure thing. A Houston team has to compete for fans against high school, college and pro football, plus the Rockets, MSL.... Football in Texas is like hockey in Canada... It's not life-or-death...... it's more important than that.

I know there are more than 7 million people in the Houston Metro but if it was the old days where an expansion team had to suck for 10 years before becoming successful then I could see a NHL team fail in Houston. Houston fans can be fickle... not Atlanta fickle but they like winners.
 
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LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
7,907
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Ottawa
So you believe the NHL is fraudulently presenting their revenues/profits/cash flows?
Dude, I’m not going to re-litigate things that I’ve already written in other posts. I have not exactly been shy in my opinions, nor have I buried the lede or shied away from explaining my nuances. It’s all there to read if you want it to see it.

At this point, probably better to just ignore the guy.
Absolutely.
 

Reality Czech

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
5,815
9,391
They'll have to. Having a league of 34-36 teams where less than half make the playoffs is a bad sell. It'll probably something like 1-6 seeds are guaranteed their spots and then there's a single elim round or mini-tourney between the 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 seeds from each conference. The 1-6 seeds get a week of rest and then the normal playoffs start (and the SCF ends at the end of June :laugh: )

Yes and they will lose fans in the markets that get stuck in perpetual mediocrity. A good chunk of fans will never see their team win a Cup in their lifetime with that many teams. It's a bad idea in so many ways.
 
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mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,608
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So the nhl will have more teams than every other big professional league in north america right?

Another way to look at the current distribution of teams: the NHL has the fewest teams in the USA among the big professional leagues

USA located teams:
- NHL 25
- NBA 29
- MLB 29
- NFL 32

Compared to the other major leagues, the NHL has the biggest untapped markets in Atlanta, Houston and yes—Phoenix.
 

HockeyScotty

Registered User
Sep 11, 2021
160
160
Fast food franchises pay to the corporate headquarters, not to all of the other McDonalds owners in the area. They do pay some up front licensing fees, but they pay costs throughout the life of the franchise. And if McDonalds started charging $50m for each restaurant which was then divvied up between all the local franchise owners to encourage them to accept more franchises, that absolutely would be a Ponzi Scheme. The NHL isn't pocketing the money from expansion, they're cutting checks for each of the teams in the league. Ponzi Scheme 101, and while your example of franchise fast food is quite clearly wrong, it very nicely illustrates the difference between legitimate and illegitimate.

I believe the league expanded to Vegas in good faith and splitting the money between the existent teams was a valid enough measure of profit sharing. Adding the 33rd and 34th teams less than 10 years later is the Ponzi Scheme taking over.



They're charging a billion dollars to join the club. You know how long it's going to take any of these teams to make enough profit that it's worth a billion dollars today? Long enough that it's not a good investment. There's no big TV deal on the horizon, it's going to take decades of gate revenues and $20 beers for these franchises to scrape the profit together that's worth anywhere near the billion dollars of their buy-in. A seat at the NHL table is not worth a billion dollars, the profitability is absolutely being exaggerated because those fees are driven by franchise values, which are already being driven up by expansion. It's a self-feeding cycle, expansion causes franchise values to rise, which causes expansion fees to go up, which causes franchise values to rise, etc.

The part about legitimate activities being non existent, the part that you've been hammering away at, is an OR.

"misleads investors by either falsely suggesting that profits are derived from legitimate business activities (whereas the business activities are non-existent), or by exaggerating the extent and profitability of the legitimate business activities,"

There is a legitimate and profitable hockey league, but everything in their financial big picture has gone absolutely squirrely since they started factoring expansion checks into their franchise values.


Cool ad hominem. I never claimed to be sane, but the more we talk, the more I'm sure that I am actually the one who knows what a Ponzi Scheme is.
The NHL, or any business of its kind, is NOT including the Expansion Fees as Revenue, which in turn, would affect Profits. Expansion fees are a return of capital; this is not the same thing. One is an Income Statement impact (for that fiscal year only) and the other is only a Balance Sheet impact. There are many ripple affects of the accounting treatement.

Both of those variables do affect the Return on Investment (ROI) which is a key indicator for any investor/businessman.

Using terms like Revenues, Profits, Investment, Returns, etc. needs to be done accurately for any of these discussions to be worthwhile.

I have seen many cases of outright fraud and failed business models that have resulted in litigation between investors and operators. The NHL selling additional franchises in the manner they are is not a Ponzi Scheme.

If they sold the rights to 132 expansion teams with a $50 million non-refundable deposit to each prospective owner; and then rejected them for various reasons but kept the money that could be a basis for fraud.

If they decided to create an NHL-Europe league and raised capital, failed to ever create a European league but then didn't disclose this and then raised a 2nd round of capital in order to make " profit distributions" to the 1st investors so that they would invest even more in the 3rd round and so on and so on..... then it would be a Ponzi scheme.
 
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rojac

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Another way to look at the current distribution of teams: the NHL has the fewest teams in the USA among the big professional leagues

USA located teams:
- NHL 25
- NBA 29
- MLB 30
- NFL 32

Compared to the other major leagues, the NHL has the biggest untapped markets in Atlanta, Houston and yes—Phoenix.
In your list, it should be 29 for MLB unless I've missed news about the Jays relocating. :)
 
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Demon Eyes

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Nov 29, 2014
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i dunno, you expand to houston, maybe 20 years from now, you get the next Auston Matthews that Gary Bettman's head can give to Toronto.
 

teravaineSAROS

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Jul 29, 2015
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Not everybody enjoys the inflated increased scoring. And not everyone wants a watered down league. Some of us enjoy watching the cream of the crop compete against eachother. So you can understand why people don't want 50ish non NHLers joining the league

I understand the argument against it for sure, I'm personally undecided on if I'd want more teams or no.

My point is just that I think a lot of people expect it to be a lot more watered down than it actually would be.
 
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