Next country to have a couple of golden years?

[Latgale_fan]

Germany seems to be in decline lately... or maybe just a few bad years. I don't remember when we have handled them as easily as this year at U20 level and last year (though 97 is a good year for us) at U18 level. And Belorussians did them too this year at U18. So now both their teams are stuck for at least one year down in Div 1A.

 

[kabidjan18]

Yes, I know but I don't think that they're on a decline. Norway has been producing more and more players for the top leagues in Europe.

More and more...? See now I really have no clue what you're talking about. They have one player per league in top leagues not the neighboring SHL. Their SHL production also seems to be going down. Junior NTs have been struggling for a bit, but that's not a strong indicator. Especially next to Denmark they seem to be stagnating and shrinking fast.

 

[Urbanskog]

More and more...? See now I really have no clue what you're talking about. They have one player per league in top leagues not the neighboring SHL. Their SHL production also seems to be going down. Junior NTs have been struggling for a bit, but that's not a strong indicator. Especially next to Denmark they seem to be stagnating and shrinking fast.

I thought their number of players in the SHL has been growing but I guess I remembered that wrong. Not quite matching Denmark does not necessarily mean decline though as Denmark is probably the fastest-growing nation in the sport at the moment.

 

[ozo]

In a vacuum (and relatively to what they have right now, because in reality golden years the OP is talking about are really possible for top 5 or 6 hockey nations in the world) I'd say Kazakhstan or Belarus. I say in vacuum because there's like 80% chance that the prospect diamonds will be scooped up by team Russia or at least they will decline to play for their birth country. Belarus and Kazakhstan have been steadily increasing their rink count and a lot of money is poured into hockey in general. Belarus is again becoming a yo-yo team in U18 and U20 championships, but Kazakhstan has consolidated its place in D1A in the same tournaments. Every next birth year has a bigger talent pool to pick from so hockey is definitely on a up in these countries, so it kinda is an educated guess that they are bound to get lucky with some prospects.

 

[kabidjan18]

I thought their number of players in the SHL has been growing but I guess I remembered that wrong. Not quite matching Denmark does not necessarily mean decline though as Denmark is probably the fastest-growing nation in the sport at the moment.

I admittedly don't have a very intimate knowledge of the inner workings and status of Norwegian hockey, I just know since the start of Sochi they've really struggled intentionally. This year they were supposed to be favorites for the U20 WM just because, it's Norway and they're traditionally better right? They finished second to last. Then a second to last finish in the U18 WM and they look to be relegation candidates at the senior level even with Zuccarello. Also they nominally finished 4th at the U16 end of season tournament but they were worse than the Denmark team that finished 5th but had bad draw luck (drawn with Germany and Austria). Yes they were missing MEP but all the countries missed someone...

 

[kabidjan18]

In a vacuum (and relatively to what they have right now, because in reality golden years the OP is talking about are really possible for top 5 or 6 hockey nations in the world) I'd say Kazakhstan or Belarus. I say in vacuum because there's like 80% chance that the prospect diamonds will be scooped up by team Russia or at least they will decline to play for their birth country. Belarus and Kazakhstan have been steadily increasing their rink count and a lot of money is poured into hockey in general. Belarus is again becoming a yo-yo team in U18 and U20 championships, but Kazakhstan has consolidated its place in D1A in the same tournaments. Every next birth year has a bigger talent pool to pick from so hockey is definitely on a up in these countries, so it kinda is an educated guess that they are bound to get lucky with some prospects.

If you look at the history of Belorussian youth hockey right now is nothing exceptional. Belarus, and really all the former Soviet satellites except for Latvia (Latvia is weird like that, good weird), possess an incredibly high bust rate due to lack of accessible high-level professional clubs and domestic hockey infrastructure (by this I don't mean buildings). Now the prospects from their junior teams are even less impressive than back when their junior teams would routinely bust 20 or 21 of 22 roster players. Their rosters may play well because of the cohesiveness they have from many being on the same team, but there is not the professional infrastructure present to help them succeed. Also, between you and me, I think in another year Pavel Lapin will play for Russia. Right now he doesn't have the 2 years of eligibility yet so junior olympics wasn't an option.

 

[ozo]

If you look at the history of Belorussian youth hockey right now is nothing exceptional

I will disagree. The depth and the scope of Belarussian (and Kazakh) hockey is unprecedented. When USSR dissolved hockey in Belarus was alive in two (or was it three?) cities, now there's a rink and a hockey school in every somewhat biggish town all over the country. Kazakhstan also is going in that direction. Yes, there's no Grabovski or Kostitsyn on the prospect stage right now, but imo that's only a question of time. Both countries now will be producing their best generations of players fully raised in independent countries.

 

[kabidjan18]

I will disagree. The depth and the scope of Belarussian (and Kazakh) hockey is unprecedented. When USSR dissolved hockey in Belarus was alive in two (or was it three?) cities, now there's a rink and a hockey school in every somewhat biggish town all over the country. Kazakhstan also is going in that direction. Yes, there's no Grabovski or Kostitsyn on the prospect stage right now, but imo that's only a question of time. Both countries now will be producing their best generations of players fully raised in independent countries.

Perhaps if you mean their current U12 generation will be the next golden age, maybe but that's in a long while. But that's not the problem. The problem isn't lack of youth surfaces. The problem is professional hockey infrastructure. Belarus has one professional hockey team, Dinamo Minsk, and Kazakhstan has one professional hockey team, Barys Astana. Yes, Belarus and Kazakhstan have local leagues, but these local leagues are not competitive enough, lucrative enough to help develop a young prospect into a young professional. I don't think Belarus NT even plays local league players for WM or Olympic events.

Every year the Junior teams of Belarus go to the junior championships and they do very well. Then you never hear of them again. Dinamo Minsk can only sign so many young Belorussians every year, maybe one if any. A young prospect needs to play in a competitive environment to improve, he needs the monetary incentive to play hockey over anything else he could do in life, and these Kazakh or Belorussian players just don't have that right now. My research was on Belarus not Kazakhstan so I'll give Belorussian examples to illustrate. The 2010 U20 WM class, seemed promising at the time but who came out of it. An underaged Kirill Gotovets played 2 games there, he's now mostly settled in the AHL after bouncing between the AHL and ECHL, future still uncertain. Sergei Drozd is like a 4th liner for them. No one else made it. They looked so promising statistically at the time. Go back a year and it was Drozd and Belarus 4th liner Artyom Demkov, Dmitri Korobov, no one else made it. Go back another year add Andrei Stas, Nikita Komarov. If you look at the U18 classes it's even worse. The 3 years Arturs Gavrus played in the U18 WM produced one other regular National Teamer, Yevgeni Lisovets. It's not that they weren't being successful. Those U18 years they were getting promoted, and then playing top division, winning the D1A handily every year. They were always perennial contenders at the U20 level too, it wasn't for lack of strong youth teams, so what happened? Go back to Latvia U20 in the same 2010 year. Bukarts, Kenins, Indrasis, Freibergs, Skvorcovs, Kalnins, it's not natural for entire classes of players who played well to just fade into the blue. They either need to diversify their export base like Latvia, or they need to develop their local league like Switzerland. Otherwise, they can have all the Junior success a man can ever bite off, and at the end of the day the golden age will never come.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

Interesting, I think some would say they're declining, you see something in the works there?

When I was talking about Norway, I feel they are kind of at a cross roads. They could take the jump to be a consistent competitor in major international tournaments in the same class as Switzerland, or even Slovakia as a team which can potentially make a power 6 nation sweat from time to time, but never really compete for medals in tournaments. They have had better prospects the last 4-5 years, and I feel it is possible to make that leap.

However, it is also possible that right now is Norway's golden age, and after the current prospect pool dries up, that they will go back to being fodder for other top 10 nations in international play. That is why I said maybe Norway could be a country that next experiences a "golden era."

 

[kabidjan18]

When I was talking about Norway, I feel they are kind of at a cross roads. They could take the jump to be a consistent competitor in major international tournaments in the same class as Switzerland, or even Slovakia as a team which can potentially make a power 6 nation sweat from time to time, but never really compete for medals in tournaments. They have had better prospects the last 4-5 years, and I feel it is possible to make that leap.

However, it is also possible that right now is Norway's golden age, and after the current prospect pool dries up, that they will go back to being fodder for other top 10 nations in international play. That is why I said maybe Norway could be a country that next experiences a "golden era."

Yeah, perhaps. I guess my opinion is that the golden age has come and gone. Yes there is MEP, and Slovenia has Lennart Markun, Austria has Marco Rossi, Hungary has Marcell Revesz, Denmark has Jonas Rondberg, Italy has Stephan Deluca etc. I just don't see them making the jump to light speed if I'm speaking figuratively. The youth teams have been struggling recently. Youth team success however is only somewhat of a measure, some youth programs struggle miserably and yet produce good prospects while others have wild success to zero fruition. We'll see, just since the Sochi situation they've been awfully quiet.

 

[ulvvf]

And he probably will be right, hockey is constantly growing and evolving.

I think it starting to hit the wall. If you compare NHL now to the 60´s when it was mostly just canadians and the game felt more amatuer like, I think it justifed to say that NHL today and hockey in general is a lot better to say the least. But from where should the level increase happen now? If the players keep comming from the same countries it is a indicating of that the level do not progress much, or have we seen a explosion among numbers of players in this countries the last years? If you look at football, the talent comes from all over the world. Hockey needs to become bigger in other countries to become much better than it is today.

Even if the levels goes up, it will not be with that big of a margin so it would have those affect. The general hype may however increase by a lot. Hype and reality is not the same.

 

[ozo]

Perhaps if you mean their current U12 generation will be the next golden age, maybe but that's in a long while. But that's not the problem. The problem isn't lack of youth surfaces. The problem is professional hockey infrastructure. Belarus has one professional hockey team, Dinamo Minsk, and Kazakhstan has one professional hockey team, Barys Astana. Yes, Belarus and Kazakhstan have local leagues, but these local leagues are not competitive enough, lucrative enough to help develop a young prospect into a young professional. I don't think Belarus NT even plays local league players for WM or Olympic events.

Every year the Junior teams of Belarus go to the junior championships and they do very well. Then you never hear of them again. Dinamo Minsk can only sign so many young Belorussians every year, maybe one if any. A young prospect needs to play in a competitive environment to improve, he needs the monetary incentive to play hockey over anything else he could do in life, and these Kazakh or Belorussian players just don't have that right now. My research was on Belarus not Kazakhstan so I'll give Belorussian examples to illustrate. The 2010 U20 WM class, seemed promising at the time but who came out of it. An underaged Kirill Gotovets played 2 games there, he's now mostly settled in the AHL after bouncing between the AHL and ECHL, future still uncertain. Sergei Drozd is like a 4th liner for them. No one else made it. They looked so promising statistically at the time. Go back a year and it was Drozd and Belarus 4th liner Artyom Demkov, Dmitri Korobov, no one else made it. Go back another year add Andrei Stas, Nikita Komarov. If you look at the U18 classes it's even worse. The 3 years Arturs Gavrus played in the U18 WM produced one other regular National Teamer, Yevgeni Lisovets. It's not that they weren't being successful. Those U18 years they were getting promoted, and then playing top division, winning the D1A handily every year. They were always perennial contenders at the U20 level too, it wasn't for lack of strong youth teams, so what happened? Go back to Latvia U20 in the same 2010 year. Bukarts, Kenins, Indrasis, Freibergs, Skvorcovs, Kalnins, it's not natural for entire classes of players who played well to just fade into the blue. They either need to diversify their export base like Latvia, or they need to develop their local league like Switzerland. Otherwise, they can have all the Junior success a man can ever bite off, and at the end of the day the golden age will never come.

All you say about historic rosters and players that made it is 100% true, but it is not what I wrote or this topic is about. As you correctly put it Belarus just need to diversify where they send their brightest kids to develope, Russia, the natural choice unfortunately is a double edged sword as we agreed. IMO there's precious little difference between Denmark and Belarus national league when it comes to actual strenght. Im not saying that great things will follow bur Belarus has put themselves in the best position since Soviet Union dissolved to manufacture relevant hockey players again.

 

[snipes]

Hungary should just do what Kazakhstan has done. Go get some good Canadian boys, pay them good money to play in their domestic league for 4 years and give them a passport .

Lots of Canadian hockey players who can't make the NHL would take up the offer in a heartbeat to play the game they love. Start recruiting guys playing University hockey currently (a sizeable number are former CHL players and possess elite skill relative to their European peers).

I like the Hungarian fans enough that I would applaud this move.

 

[kabidjan18]

All you say about historic rosters and players that made it is 100% true, but it is not what I wrote or this topic is about. As you correctly put it Belarus just need to diversify where they send their brightest kids to develope, Russia, the natural choice unfortunately is a double edged sword as we agreed. IMO there's precious little difference between Denmark and Belarus national league when it comes to actual strenght. Im not saying that great things will follow bur Belarus has put themselves in the best position since Soviet Union dissolved to manufacture relevant hockey players again.

Perhaps, I don't see it but that's just me. Denmark has the fortune of exporting to Sweden and Sweden doesn't steal. Denmark is just producing at a crazy rate right now, not quite sure why. Another thing is that Danish prospects play in the Danish top league while for some reason Belorussian prospects develop in the second league, don't know why, it's much harder to sell.

Hungary should just do what Kazakhstan has done. Go get some good Canadian boys, pay them good money to play in their domestic league for 4 years and give them a passport .

Lots of Canadian hockey players who can't make the NHL would take up the offer in a heartbeat to play the game they love. Start recruiting guys playing University hockey currently (a sizeable number are former CHL players and possess elite skill relative to their European peers).

I like the Hungarian fans enough that I would applaud this move.

Let's see, Jesse Dudas, Kalvin Sagert, Kevin Wehrs, Frank Banham and Andrew Sarauer. I think naturalizing imports is covered...

 

[snipes]

Perhaps, I don't see it but that's just me. Denmark has the fortune of exporting to Sweden and Sweden doesn't steal. Denmark is just producing at a crazy rate right now, not quite sure why. Another thing is that Danish prospects play in the Danish top league while for some reason Belorussian prospects develop in the second league, don't know why, it's much harder to sell.


Let's see, Jesse Dudas, Kalvin Sagert, Kevin Wehrs, Frank Banham and Andrew Sarauer. I think naturalizing imports is covered...

Higher end imports for Hungary .

Agree with you on the Danes, they're trending upwards.

 

[kabidjan18]

Higher end imports for Hungary .

Agree with you on the Danes, they're trending upwards.

Patrick Russell just signed yesterday Danish rolling

Lol did you like not bother the check the resumes of those guys I listed? Some are way better than university hockey players. Sarauer spent some time in the AHL. Frank Banham played in the NHL forever ago. Wehrs was an NCAA player and the other two were low end CHL/ECHL guys. Hungary has only one EBEL team, Szekesfehervar, so only one team with the budget to pull decent imports. The other two come from the Mol Liga, league has a great reputation for actually paying promised salaries (cough cough Ljubljana) but the salaries are intensely low. On the high end you have below average ECHL players, on the low end you have middle of the road CIS grads. They're getting all the import help they can in other words.

 

[fredligh]

In Sweden we had some dynamite years producing some really great D talent as well as some good F prospects. To bad our coaching/man management is awful. With Grönborg at the bench for the coming years i would say we can cash out some silver-/bronzemedals (grönborgs favorite). I would say U.S, and Finland will be the best to streamline their talent. I wont say Canada because they will always be the favorite for gold.

 

[snipes]

Patrick Russell just signed yesterday Danish rolling

Lol did you like not bother the check the resumes of those guys I listed? Some are way better than university hockey players. Sarauer spent some time in the AHL. Frank Banham played in the NHL forever ago. Wehrs was an NCAA player and the other two were low end CHL/ECHL guys. Hungary has only one EBEL team, Szekesfehervar, so only one team with the budget to pull decent imports. The other two come from the Mol Liga, league has a great reputation for actually paying promised salaries (cough cough Ljubljana) but the salaries are intensely low. On the high end you have below average ECHL players, on the low end you have middle of the road CIS grads. They're getting all the import help they can in other words.

Loved that signing. Ever since the Toronto WJC 2015, the Danes have been Canadas second team. Russell will probably start in the AHL for the Oilers.

Yeah some of those guys for Hungary are not bad. You can tell the play a NA style game. The Hungarian team is very physical and battle hard in the corners. Full respect to the effort they gave against Canada.

I just have huge respect for the Hungarian fans, they epitomize everything that I enjoy about international hockey. I want to see Hungary stay in the top division. Those people were singing, jumping, and chanting the entire game. When they sang the national anthem to the Hungarian players afterwards I had chills going through my body.

 

[snipes]

In Sweden we had some dynamite years producing some really great D talent as well as some good F prospects. To bad our coaching/man management is awful. With Grönborg at the bench for the coming years i would say we can cash out some silver-/bronzemedals (grönborgs favorite). I would say U.S, and Finland will be the best to streamline their talent. I wont say Canada because they will always be the favorite for gold.

I think Sweden and Canada currently have the best Dmen in the world. It's honestly a tie at this point between the two.

 

[kabidjan18]

Loved that signing. Ever since the Toronto WJC 2015, the Danes have been Canadas second team. Russell will probably start in the AHL for the Oilers.

Yeah some of those guys for Hungary are not bad. You can tell the play a NA style game. The Hungarian team is very physical and battle hard in the corners. Full respect to the effort they gave against Canada.

I just have huge respect for the Hungarian fans, they epitomize everything that I enjoy about international hockey. I want to see Hungary stay in the top division. Those people were singing, jumping, and chanting the entire game. When they sang the national anthem to the Hungarian players afterwards I had chills going through my body.

Yeah, he definitely will, hopefully he doesn't do a Teddy Blueger imitation.

Even with more imports it would be hard. Szekesfehervar is not the richest club in the EBEL, and even the richest clubs can only get AHLers or leftovers from better European leagues. Szekesfehervar pulls mostly from the ECHL and has a lot of interactions with the second German league. There was/is talk of Mac Budapest joining the EBEL as well, Austrians are really pulling for it but you know Szekesfehervar will do everything in it's power to keep Budapest out.

Yeah, well good fans are always a good thing. Something to cherish while you have it, I hope this experience is good for hockey in their country. Developmentally, skill wise they're still behind but perhaps this tournament will spread awareness for hockey in the country.

 

[snipes]

Yeah, he definitely will, hopefully he doesn't do a Teddy Blueger imitation.

Even with more imports it would be hard. Szekesfehervar is not the richest club in the EBEL, and even the richest clubs can only get AHLers or leftovers from better European leagues. Szekesfehervar pulls mostly from the ECHL and has a lot of interactions with the second German league. There was/is talk of Mac Budapest joining the EBEL as well, Austrians are really pulling for it but you know Szekesfehervar will do everything in it's power to keep Budapest out.

Yeah, fans are always a good thing. Something to cherish while you have it, I hope this experience is good for hockey in their country. Developmentally, skill wise they're still behind but perhaps this tournament will spread awareness for hockey in the country.

Here's to hoping .

The Cagguila signing helps us too up front, the Oilers are on the rise. We just need some quality Dmen to compliment McDavid. I'm glad the European audience gets to see 97 live, he's unreal and better in person. He's so unselfish and willing to share the spotlight with his teammates. Best player I've ever seen.

Well for sure Hungary is behind, but that's fine. We need to encourage our game and when I see passion like that it makes me smile. Even the Canadian NHL players appreciated it and acknowledged how good the Hungarian fans are.

We feed off the passion of our game and appreciate heart and soul more than any hockey nation. Canadians will always respect that. Those Hungarian fans earned huge recognition from me and my countrymen.

Austria-Hungary rivalry? I'm all for it. Maybe I need to start watching some of the lower divisions too.

 

[kabidjan18]

Here's to hoping .

The Cagguila signing helps us too up front, the Oilers are on the rise. We just need some quality Dmen to compliment McDavid. I'm glad the European audience gets to see 97 live, he's unreal and better in person. He's so unselfish and willing to share the spotlight with his teammates. Best player I've ever seen.

Well for sure Hungary is behind, but that's fine. We need to encourage our game and when I see passion like that it makes me smile. Even the Canadian NHL players appreciated it and acknowledged how good the Hungarian fans are.

We feed off the passion of our game and appreciate heart and soul more than any hockey nation. Canadians will always respect that. Those Hungarian fans earned huge recognition from me and my countrymen.

Austria-Hungary rivalry? I'm all for it. Maybe I need to start watching some of the lower divisions too.

Yes, Edmonton will be so overpowered, and if by some miracle the CBJ GM reads too much Hfboards and ya'll get puljujarvi, that offense is just too much haha

Yeah, the government gives some funding now so they should be growing their game sometime soon. What I meant by that was most Austrians want Budapest to join (just for more clubs it seems, also rooting for Jesenice), but Szekesfehervar wants to block that because competition for Hungarian local players drives up price, lower the number of imports you can get, less likely for success etc.

Other than me getting annoyed with the brother in the other forum idk that there's a rivalry haha, I don't think Austrian fans have gotten around to seeing them as the same level yet. Austria's rivals are Germany (in everything) and Slovenia for hockey. Hungary has gone after Poland a lot recently. D1A hockey could be pretty good next year since you'll have quite a few fairly high quality teams playing. Should be good.

 

[snipes]

​

Yes, Edmonton will be so overpowered, and if by some miracle the CBJ GM reads too much Hfboards and ya'll get puljujarvi, that offense is just too much haha

Yeah, the government gives some funding now so they should be growing their game sometime soon. What I meant by that was most Austrians want Budapest to join (just for more clubs it seems, also rooting for Jesenice), but Szekesfehervar wants to block that because competition for Hungarian local players drives up price, lower the number of imports you can get, less likely for success etc.

Other than me getting annoyed with the brother in the other forum idk that there's a rivalry haha, I don't think Austrian fans have gotten around to seeing them as the same level yet. Austria's rivals are Germany (in everything) and Slovenia for hockey. Hungary has gone after Poland a lot recently. D1A hockey could be pretty good next year since you'll have quite a few fairly high quality teams playing. Should be good.

Finns are known for their humility. Seriously though, Dubois is an awesome hockey player. He likely goes #1 in 2011 and 2012. He's got unreal skill and is 6'3 200+ pounds. His game fits the NHL so well. Edmonton has no problem taking him at #4.

The fact that Dubois plays Centre and that is a need for Columbus is the basis for Dubois going #3 more than Columbus having a Finnish GM. Based on the skill of Dubois and the needs of Columbus it wouldn't be shocking to see him go #3 to Columbus. If the GM wants Dubois and will let Pulju slip to #4 to give McDavid his Kurri, I'm all for it .

Austria and Hungary should keep up the hockey rivalry. It's good for the fans and good for the sport. Canada has a huge rivalry with Russia and the USA, but lots of respect both ways.

Hockey is a form of diplomacy between Russia, the USA, and Canada. We hate each other on the ice and are huge rivals, but from that rivalry we have huge respect for each other. Canada almost hates the USA more in international hockey than they do the Russians.

With Russia and Canada it is more a form of mutual admiration as international rivals. We both recognize that we make each other better. Ask your average Russian hockey fan about what they think of Canada and hockey, or ask your average Canadian fan what they think about Russia and hockey and you will see my point.

Hopefully Austria-Hungary gets that rivalry in international hockey.

 

[kabidjan18]

​

The fact that Dubois plays Centre and that is a need for Columbus is the basis for Dubois going #3 more than Columbus having a Finnish GM. Based on the skill of Dubois and the needs of Columbus it wouldn't be shocking to see him go #3 to Columbus. If the GM wants Dubois and will let Pulju slip to #4 to give McDavid his Kurri, I'm all for it .

Hopefully Austria-Hungary gets that rivalry in international hockey.

I really don't think Edmonton needs a fourth line center though. Idk, I'm rooting for Pulju to slip to 4 because he'd fit at Edmonton.

Honestly, for that to happen Hungary has a lot of catching up to do. The Austria - Germany rivalry is intense, and the Poland - Hungary rivalry is pretty good too. Taking just a single snapshot it time one may think that Austria and Hungary are much closer than they are. I would love to say the golden age is right ahead for Austria but I can't be sure because the local youth leagues and development systems are still relatively in the pilot stage, a lot could go right but a lot could go wrong.

 

[ulvvf]

In Sweden we had some dynamite years producing some really great D talent as well as some good F prospects. To bad our coaching/man management is awful. With Grönborg at the bench for the coming years i would say we can cash out some silver-/bronzemedals (grönborgs favorite). I would say U.S, and Finland will be the best to streamline their talent. I wont say Canada because they will always be the favorite for gold.

We have like almost 40 straight group stage wins. But either way, WJC 20 do not really matter when it comes to producing stars.

btw, 98 and 99 is the best ever statswise from sweden.