News and Notes Thread VII: Ch ch ch changes

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Jul 18, 2010
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It read pretty clear to me. We had the 7th pick in the draft and if anybody thinks the Flames would have taken Ward off our hands for a 7th round pick (or with a 7th round pick) then you clearly need to step away from NHL 14.

Well, they need a goalie. Honestly, which seems more reasonable? Up until a little bit ago we were talking about trading Ward in an ACTUAL TRADE. Like, getting something back. It's not at all a stretch to think that a team that needs a goalie would take a goalie and a 7th rounder for free, regardless of contract.
 

bluedevil58*

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Ok why have we not signed Tlusty and Lokt yet? More importantly Tlusty. I still feel there are some unknowns from Lotk but I really like what I saw last year. If he is recovering well then why not resign him to a low-risk contract? He was one of the few play makers that we actually had. What happens if we do not sign these guys by today? Do they hit UFA? Do we get any sort of compensation due to them not being RFAs?
 

Wolfpuck

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Ok why have we not made offers to Tlusty and Lokt yet? More importantly Tlusty. I still feel there are some unknowns from Lotk but I really like what I saw last year. If he is recovering well then why not resign him to a low-risk contract? He was one of the few play makers that we actually had.

The lack of any updates regarding Lokti's shoulder injury have me worried.
 

garnetpalmetto

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Ok why have we not made offers to Tlusty and Lokt yet? More importantly Tlusty. I still feel there are some unknowns from Lotk but I really like what I saw last year. If he is recovering well then why not resign him to a low-risk contract? He was one of the few play makers that we actually had.

Say hello to two days ago.

Chip Alexander @ice_chip · Jun 28

Francis says Canes are in talks with Tlusty. Will qualify him.
 

Joe McGrath

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I think the 7 on Jenkins is actually a great idea. They can try to grow a D pair together all the way from junior. That would be an interesting experiment, no? Have Ganly play an overage year and bring them both into the ECHL as the top pair the same year.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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I guess that answers the question on Ward. If it meant sending our first round pick to get rid of him and assuming PK wouldn't let RF buy him out, not really a lot of options.

But, If they re-sign Bowman to a 1-way contract or money that means he'll be in the NHL again this year, I'll be right with Vagrant in the "nothing has changed" criticism.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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The importance of Foegele being a UNH recruit means that he was heavily scouted by UNH, obviously. When your scouts are making trips to watch Pesce and the head coach or whoever brings up a kid they're looking at as a 14 eligible prospect that is making waves... it's a link. Granted, not all these are rock solid but they show the patterns that were evident with JR. Friends of friends. Guys who were recruited by the same programs. Guys with obvious links to other players. Relationship based scouting.

Question is though, is that because of the scouts that are already in place? JR's influence (previously)? or just plain limitations in # of scouts/scouting budget?

This key to me as that is the thing I want to see change more than anything with RF. Scouting, drafting and developing.
 

Vagrant

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Sometimes making the trade that needs to be made includes a sacrifice that you might not love. Nobody in their right mind would trade the 7th overall pick for dumping a contract, but to open discussions and to make it your final offer is a different thing all together. We're not working with all the information. The fact that people are surmising that this is the least it would cost us to jettison Cam Ward are just as naive as the people saying it could have been done with the snap of your fingers. It's a job. It takes work. If you're trying to jettison a negative value asset you have to make it work for the other team too. That's part of a GMs job is to find a team that is willing and able to take the contract and find a place that doesn't hurt both of your squads.

Don't assume this was the only option. In the same vein, don't assume that it would be easy. But if RF really wanted to make it happen, he probably could have made it happen.
 

Blueline Bomber

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Jesus Ward's value shouldn't be THAT negative. He's got two years left not ten.

He's also paid way too much for an above average goaltender, let alone one that hasn't been anywhere near average for the past two seasons and has injury troubles to boot. Oh, and an NTC.

Francis's best bet has always been to wait out Ward's contract and hope he bounces back. Anything beyond that is an unnecessary risk and/or an unnecessary waste of resources.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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The importance of Foegele being a UNH recruit means that he was heavily scouted by UNH, obviously. When your scouts are making trips to watch Pesce and the head coach or whoever brings up a kid they're looking at as a 14 eligible prospect that is making waves... it's a link. Granted, not all these are rock solid but they show the patterns that were evident with JR. Friends of friends. Guys who were recruited by the same programs. Guys with obvious links to other players. Relationship based scouting.

That's fair, but I still don't understand why that's a negative. If a scout you trust says "take a look at this guy", wouldn't you? If you like him, wouldn't you draft him if it were reasonable? You know more about this process than I do, but that doesn't seem like a "JR thing" as much as it seems like a "a reasonable person would do this" thing. Now, if you're drafting blindly based off of something someone else says, that's stupid. But if you get a hint you should follow it. People said the Foegele pick was a good one, a lot of people did. And honestly, it wasn't in DRAFTING Dalpe that we went wrong, it was in developing him. Plus, even if talking to other scouts IS a uniquely-JR thing, it's already been established that JR was our GM all year. It's not RF's fault if JR scouted incorrectly.

We were given high draft grades by a lot of outside scouting services and analysts. I think we had a pretty good draft. Not to mention, you've stated your distaste for the Fleury pick DESPITE that being a significant departure from the norm. If we had drafted Nylander, as you suggested, couldn't I have said the same thing that you did about Wallmark? Only difference is that it would've been a top 10 pick instead of a 4th rounder.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Jesus Ward's value shouldn't be THAT negative. He's got two years left not ten.

I just think that it's because there isn't that big of a market. Not a whole lot of teams looking for a goalie to begin with, much less one that hasn't been healthy the last 2 seasons, hasn't played well the last 2 seasons and one that costs that much. There are likely better options in UFA.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Sometimes making the trade that needs to be made includes a sacrifice that you might not love. Nobody in their right mind would trade the 7th overall pick for dumping a contract, but to open discussions and to make it your final offer is a different thing all together. We're not working with all the information. The fact that people are surmising that this is the least it would cost us to jettison Cam Ward are just as naive as the people saying it could have been done with the snap of your fingers. It's a job. It takes work. If you're trying to jettison a negative value asset you have to make it work for the other team too. That's part of a GMs job is to find a team that is willing and able to take the contract and find a place that doesn't hurt both of your squads.

Don't assume this was the only option. In the same vein, don't assume that it would be easy. But if RF really wanted to make it happen, he probably could have made it happen.

What would you have given up, out of curiosity? Our 2nd rounder?

To me, he's got 2 years left. Getting out from under that contract shouldn't cost a 2nd rounder. I might've done a 5th. (Or, of course, knowing what we did with our first 4th rounder, a 4th :laugh:)
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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But if RF really wanted to make it happen, he probably could have made it happen.

I agree with that. Question is at what cost though.

One of the things I hated about JR was how he tossed away draft picks/prospects to try and fix previous problems and or seemingly as throw-ins in deals (pick to LA for the ASTEW, Alt (2nd round pick) to take Boucher off our hands, Dumoulin in the J. Staal trade, etc.. That's the type of thing I did NOT want Francis doing, even if it meant the team was worse this year..unless it was a later round pick.

On the flipside, JR was also able to successfully get rid of mistakes by taking back different players that might fit better. Tlusty for Paradis, Spacek (less than 1 year left) for Kaberle, Loktionov for Ruutu, Liles for Gleason, etc....

I have to think there were options for RF to take on a contract from another team that might also fill a hole in exchange for Ward. While not ideal, it still would be better IMO.
 

bleedgreen

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So the only way calgary would take ward was for the number 7. No shock why that didn't happen. It would be nice to move on from the contract but were better off with both for now.
 

Blueline Bomber

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It's going to be even funnier to see this board when another team signs one of the free agent goalies and/or trades for one.

It'll be nothing but "Why didn't we offer Ward to them!?" :laugh:
 

Joe McGrath

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I agree with that. Question is at what cost though.

One of the things I hated about JR was how he tossed away draft picks/prospects to try and fix previous problems and or seemingly as throw-ins in deals (pick to LA for the ASTEW, Alt (2nd round pick) to take Boucher off our hands, Dumoulin in the J. Staal trade, etc.. That's the type of thing I did NOT want Francis doing, even if it meant the team was worse this year..unless it was a later round pick.

On the flipside, JR was also able to successfully get rid of mistakes by taking back different players that might fit better. Tlusty for Paradis, Spacek (less than 1 year left) for Kaberle, Loktionov for Ruutu, Liles for Gleason, etc....

I have to think there were options for RF to take on a contract from another team that might also fill a hole in exchange for Ward. While not ideal, it still would be better IMO.

His best bet is to make that trade in season. Wait for a goalie to get hurt, trade Cam to that team and have them send back a player on a crap contract that only has 1 year left or is expiring at year end. Also, no one is trading for Cam to actually address goaltending issues before FA when they could be in on cheap backup options or even Hiller for less than Cam makes.
 

Vagrant

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That's fair, but I still don't understand why that's a negative. If a scout you trust says "take a look at this guy", wouldn't you? If you like him, wouldn't you draft him if it were reasonable? You know more about this process than I do, but that doesn't seem like a "JR thing" as much as it seems like a "a reasonable person would do this" thing. Now, if you're drafting blindly based off of something someone else says, that's stupid. But if you get a hint you should follow it. People said the Foegele pick was a good one, a lot of people did. And honestly, it wasn't in DRAFTING Dalpe that we went wrong, it was in developing him. Plus, even if talking to other scouts IS a uniquely-JR thing, it's already been established that JR was our GM all year. It's not RF's fault if JR scouted incorrectly.

We were given high draft grades by a lot of outside scouting services and analysts. I think we had a pretty good draft. Not to mention, you've stated your distaste for the Fleury pick DESPITE that being a significant departure from the norm. If we had drafted Nylander, as you suggested, couldn't I have said the same thing that you did about Wallmark? Only difference is that it would've been a top 10 pick instead of a 4th rounder.

For clarification, I don't hate this draft at all. My contention was that it *still* looked a lot like a JR draft. Every player is different. The circumstances are different. I didn't like the fact that we took Fleury at 7th, but it's incredibly likely he's going to be a player for us. I just fear that there are players that went in the immediate vicinity of us that are going to be more than just players but are going to be stars. I think we took the double instead of the home run and when you're drafting that high it's tough to take a player with as relatively minimal high end upside as Fleury represents.

I liked the 2nd round goalie selection. I think it fits an area of need and this was by no means a player that was drafted on Plymouth merit alone. I like the Foegele pick as it's an upside pick through and through and those are the kind of chances we need to take. I liked the Wallmark pick quite a bit. There wasn't a lot that I hated about this draft to be honest, but to deny that it still had the fingerprints of JR all over it would be to deny what is apparent on its face.

As far as what I would have given up to rid of the Ward contract, I would have done a 2nd round pick and retained a bit of salary to do it. If I could have found a taker for that. I think we're underestimating what an additional $6.3 million could do for this roster if we utilized it properly. We could have picked up Purcell or Gagner at a discounted rate and solved some of our depth problems. We could have tried our hand at a few UFA pitches. It would have opened this thing wide open.
 

Finnish Jerk Train

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His best bet is to make that trade in season. Wait for a goalie to get hurt, trade Cam to that team and have them send back a player on a crap contract that only has 1 year left or is expiring at year end. Also, no one is trading for Cam to actually address goaltending issues before FA when they could be in on cheap backup options or even Hiller for less than Cam makes.

This. Ward's value will never be any lower than it is now. Might as well give him a chance to raise his stock and wait for a hand we can force a little bit.
 

My Special Purpose

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So we paid $12.6 million for Haydn Fleury. He'd better be really freakin' good. Keep in mind, this isn't just cap space. It's actual dollars. I'm not saying I'd have done the deal if I was RF, but I clearly would have made a counter-offer, or played Buffalo against Calgary to see who would take the lowest pick. There's very little chance I'd have left Philly with Cam if two teams were willing to take the contract for a pick. And even in the minuscule chance that I did, I wouldn't anoint him the starter for the season.

The Wesley pick and not trading Cam are two clear negatives to the Francis regime, and I can say with some degree of certainty that we're not anywhere at this point that we wouldn't be under Rutherford.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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I agree with that. Question is at what cost though.

One of the things I hated about JR was how he tossed away draft picks/prospects to try and fix previous problems and or seemingly as throw-ins in deals (pick to LA for the ASTEW, Alt (2nd round pick) to take Boucher off our hands, Dumoulin in the J. Staal trade, etc.. That's the type of thing I did NOT want Francis doing, even if it meant the team was worse this year..unless it was a later round pick.

On the flipside, JR was also able to successfully get rid of mistakes by taking back different players that might fit better. Tlusty for Paradis, Spacek (less than 1 year left) for Kaberle, Loktionov for Ruutu, Liles for Gleason, etc....

I have to think there were options for RF to take on a contract from another team that might also fill a hole in exchange for Ward. While not ideal, it still would be better IMO.

I completely agree, and this is the type of thing I've been hoping to do with Ward the whole time. If something like this isn't available (or something easy like giving up a 7th rounder), I'd rather keep him. This team's pipeline is bare. Like, bad. HF ranked us as the 2nd-worse in the league. For a team that hasn't made the playoffs in however many years, that's bad. Really bad. Like "not fixed through free agency/cap room" bad. Yzerman's got Drouin, Vasilevski, and a number of other good, young players. We're excited about Brock McGinn. Personally, if I'm running this team, I'm building through the draft. That's how LA has built. That's how Chicago has built. The cap space thing is nice, free agency can be helpful, but that's to take a good team to becoming a champion. Yeah, moving Ward would be good. But we're not going to be a Stanley Cup champion in the next two years. Meanwhile, we might be in five or six if we stop trading away our draft picks for help now, and start actually developing young talent. You're telling me Zach Boychuk and Zac Dalpe couldn't be decent top 9 NHLers if we had developed them right? By the end, JR had completely lost confidence in this organization's ability to develop talent, and rightfully so. That's why we went NHL-ready forward in the 1st round, then NCAA players for the rest of the draft. Anyone that's not ready for this team by the time they're AHL-eligible is done. Even Murphy hasn't made the jump yet, and I personally haven't seen much from him to suggest he's improved since his first time making our roster. Meanwhile, look at LA, look at Chicago. Someone gets hurt? Let's pull up Ben Smith from the minors. Gearing up for a playoff run? Look, actual assets to trade for Marian Gaborik!

This team's pipeline, or lack thereof, has been the reason for this team's failure over the last 7 years. And that doesn't happen overnight. We could trade Ward and send a 2nd rounder to Calgary, and that would probably buy us enough cap space to sign just enough free agents to finish 9th in the East and draft 14th. Not the worst thing in the world if you draft well. But I'd rather take it slow. My patience isn't running thin, as far as being a good team goes. My patience is running thin as far as putting things in place to BECOME a good team goes. I think we're on the same page there, Vagrant. But I don't think giving up picks to get rid of Ward is all we'll need to do, if we want to go the "be good now" route. We'd have to rip off a lot of teams and actually make ourselves a playoff team this year. We need to be acquiring picks, not giving them up. Realize that Calgary picked 3 spots ahead of us. They're about as good as us right now. They're burning the phone getting picks. They're taking ON bad contracts. Buffalo's becoming as bad as they can be to get McDavid/Eichel next year. Improving is slow. LA was bad for awhile, so was Chicago. We've been bad long enough to be good, and we even draft fairly well, we just don't actually develop the prospects. We need to develop prospects. That should be our plan. If Daniels isn't gone, we better have a complete overhaul of that process.

Anyway, that's the "plan" I'd like to see. Put something in place that gives us the ability to actually develop kids. I haven't seen that yet, but, save for firing Daniels, I don't think there's anyway I could. So I'm going to be patient. You keep comparing what we're doing to what Yzerman is doing, but Yzerman's been there for more than 3 months and had a decent pipeline to work with. We've got literally nothing. Our free agency moves and dealings in the trade market this summer mean next to nothing to me. That's just me, though...
 

Sens1Canes2

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GMs don't really scout. I would say they almost NEVER do. That's what scouting departments, asst GMs, and Player Personnel guys are for. So can we get off the "JR scouting this guy" business
 

Joe McGrath

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GMs don't really scout. I would say they almost NEVER do. That's what scouting departments, asst GMs, and Player Personnel guys are for. So can we get off the "JR scouting this guy" business

I'm sure JR never scouted much if at all, but Francis did go to the U18s this year and I assume it wasn't just to shoot the **** with other NHL management types.
 

Blueline Bomber

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So we paid $12.6 million for Haydn Fleury. He'd better be really freakin' good. Keep in mind, this isn't just cap space. It's actual dollars. I'm not saying I'd have done the deal if I was RF, but I clearly would have made a counter-offer, or played Buffalo against Calgary to see who would take the lowest pick. There's very little chance I'd have left Philly with Cam if two teams were willing to take the contract for a pick. And even in the minuscule chance that I did, I wouldn't anoint him the starter for the season.

The Wesley pick and not trading Cam are two clear negatives to the Francis regime, and I can say with some degree of certainty that we're not anywhere at this point that we wouldn't be under Rutherford.

Probably because it's only been a couple months under Francis, and there's not much he could have done differently?
 
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