Post-Game Talk: New York Rangers at Detroit Red Wings - December 29

[SnowblindNYR]

Are you really blaming Lundqvist for this loss because he only stopped 2 of 3 shots in the SO? He was great in this game and he's been great most of the season. End of story.

He stopped 1 of 2 in the shootout, the 3rd one he was beat and was lucky it didn't go in. I'm not blaming him for the loss. I'm separating the loss from the fact that he's shit in the shootout this season has been at least since 11-12.

 

[Avery16]

Smith's 16:28 the least TOI for all D

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Yes, compared to other options that's not that difficult of a save. This is all relative to other shootout attempts. I'm not comparing it to an unscreened wrist shot from the point. I'm sure all of the greats have scored goals like that. So what?

This just displays a fundamental lack of understanding of what is a difficult save. It doesn't have to be a crazy deke to be a difficult save. Come on, you watch a lot of hockey and have been a fan for many years, how can you not understand that?

A player coming in at full speed and freezing the goalie with a quick perfectly placed 5 hole shot is not a nothing goal. That's just simply wrong.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

@Glen Sathers Cigar

My apologies, my numbers were a bit off. The average save percentage was 0.669 and going 3 for 3 should happen 0.300. So slightly lower odds.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yes, it`s strange that Ryan Mc. have 0 goals after 33 games, but he had some great assist and vintage plays though in his defense. Maybe it`s a mental thing since he injured Zucc some years ago. Any have stats on it - maybe he shoot much less than usual after that incident, and he usually aiming for a deflection from the blueline?

1 simple answer: he’s on the wonky PP2 now instead of PP1.

His numbers are skewing more toward 5on5 and PK now. He was bound to lose some production. Adding a player like Shattenkirk doesn’t just add pts, it takes some points from whoever was in that position previously. That’s the whole concept tho is Shattenkirk will take some pts from mcdonagh yea, but he can/has added more to the team total by being a better offensive player

 

[PuckLuck3043]

[QUOTE="SnowblindNYR, post: 139579091, member: 139889"]He stopped 1 of 2 in the shootout, the 3rd one he was beat and was lucky it didn't go in. I'm not blaming him for the loss. I'm separating the loss from the fact that he's **** in the shootout this season has been at least since 11-12.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter, he did enough to prevent the goal and the guy missed the shot. That stuff happens all the time. How many shootouts has Hank been in this year anyway? I can only remember 2 or 3.

 

[Irishguy42]

He stopped 1 of 2 in the shootout, the 3rd one he was beat and was lucky it didn't go in. I'm not blaming him for the loss. I'm separating the loss from the fact that he's **** in the shootout this season has been at least since 11-12.

Yes. Shitty in the shootout.

So shitty that he is tied for second most shootout wins among all goalies. Ever.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This just displays a fundamental lack of understanding of what is a difficult save. It doesn't have to be a crazy deke to be a difficult save. Come on, you watch a lot of hockey and have been a fan for many years, how can you not understand that?

A player coming in at full speed and freezing the goalie with a quick perfectly placed 5 hole shot is not a nothing goal. That's just simply wrong.

I'm not saying it's not a difficult save, I'm saying relatively speaking. It's also as you said a save the provides the most margin for error. A deke, you can easily miss the net. A shot top shelf, the same. If the shot was "the hardest shot for a goalie to stop" like someone said and considering there are almost exclusively two choices (goal or save) with it being very unlikely to miss the net or lose the puck, you'd see this attempt a lot more often than you do.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Doesn't matter, he did enough to prevent the goal and the guy missed the shot. That stuff happens all the time. How many shootouts has Hank been in this year anyway? I can only remember 2 or 3.

3 or 4.

 

[Irishguy42]

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

[QUOTE="SnowblindNYR, post: 139579091, member: 139889"]He stopped 1 of 2 in the shootout, the 3rd one he was beat and was lucky it didn't go in. I'm not blaming him for the loss. I'm separating the loss from the fact that he's **** in the shootout this season has been at least since 11-12.

This was Hank's 3rd. He's won 1 and this was his second loss.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I'm not saying it's not a difficult save, I'm saying relatively speaking. It's also as you said a save the provides the most margin for error. A deke, you can easily miss the net. A shot top shelf, the same. If the shot was "the hardest shot for a goalie to stop" like someone said and considering there are almost exclusively two choices (goal or save) with it being very unlikely to miss the net or lose the puck, you'd see this attempt a lot more often than you do.

I think you don't see it as much because it's difficult to perfectly place the shot. We see MANY players try it, but tons of them miss the shot and it goes off the pads/stick/pants or whatever. Nielsen is an elite shootout player and he scored on that move. Look in the same game, Skjei tried the same move on his PS and missed his shot. Players attempt it because they know shooting 5 hole with the goalie off balance moving back is a difficult save for the goalie to make if you place your shot well.

 

[will1066]

A forgettable performance other than Lettieri's first NHL goal, Hank, and Hayes' domination. Zib is not meshing with Nash and Zucc.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

For all the talk about the defensive problems, this team cannot score for shit, and our top scorer is on pace for lest than 60 points once again. Gee it would be nice to have a ppg guy on the team for once

 

[PuckLuck3043]

For all the talk about the defensive problems, this team cannot score for ****, and our top scorer is on pace for lest than 60 points once again. Gee it would be nice to have a ppg guy on the team for once

This team is 6th in the league in GF. They score plenty, it's just the last 2 games that they haven't scored much.

 

[Fataldogg]

Henrik Biron strikes again in the shootout. Honestly at this point we need to go with Pavelic in the shootout as Lundqvist is easily the worst goalie I've ever seen in the shootout right now.

He is the only thing keeping this team afloat. Team hasn't looked good for a full month now.

 

[Fataldogg]

I'm not saying it's not a difficult save, I'm saying relatively speaking. It's also as you said a save the provides the most margin for error. A deke, you can easily miss the net. A shot top shelf, the same. If the shot was "the hardest shot for a goalie to stop" like someone said and considering there are almost exclusively two choices (goal or save) with it being very unlikely to miss the net or lose the puck, you'd see this attempt a lot more often than you do.

And the guy that beat him is a top-5 player in the shootout post lockout. Nielsen is better than all the top elite players in the shootout. He scores on that shot 50% of the time.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don't want to harp on this but here are the graphs of Lundqvist's shootout save % through the years compared to average and there's also a line for his career average over league average.

So yes he does better than the league average pretty significantly and his save % is more erratic than I expected (also apparently he was really good in 11-12, I thought he was mediocre).

However the trend is going downward:

 

[CHGoalie27]

Yeah, I'm not sure why more players don't use that blue print more often. Coming in with speed and getting the goalie to try and match you moving backwards making him off balance and going between the legs or stick side with a quick shot. That's what I'd like to see more often. Slowing it down and making a bunch of dekes is harder on the player and creates more room for error. Maybe come in with speed and if the shot isn't there then make a quick deke.

I think in the shootout far too many players come in with no speed, just gliding or even outright slow. I think that's a bad plan, unless you're a player like Kane or Zucc with crazy hands who can make those moves, but most players would be better served taking their shoot outs and penalty shots at full speed.

Actually coming in slow is worse for goalies for 3 reasons, 1)the shooter has more time to decide B) the best players can release the puck without barely moving their bodies/giving hint, and until Sumos are given goalie pads Ben Bishop isn't 6 x 4 in area coverage....but mentioning Bishop, I wouldn't take any other approach but to shoot for the 5. On goalies that you can kick a FG btw the uprights, gotta shoot for the best chance.....on everyone else, if there's no shot, give an extreme deke backhand and if goalie don't bite, release with some lift. If he does, the shooter can pull the puck from one side to the other faster than a goalie can move side to side.....like if Bure gave more of an extreme first deke on Richter he might not have had a choice but to bite or Bure could've easily decided to go backhand (and I'm sure we can all agree that 35 was the most undekeable, most reliable breakaway goalie ever by 10 miles)...then who knows where we all are today...remember the penalty shot that beat him? Straight shot that an uncomfortable amount of people here would consider soft.

With a lot less ramble- the shooter always has the advantage basically because of the 6x4 area coverage thing and can only benefit with more time.

oh yeah, 3) this shouldn't go for what should be the most fit goalies on earth- but staying in that just barely off the ice crouch is a fat bitch on the lower body support joints!

Personally, I had a much easier time dealing with dekes, especially if they sped up. All these butterfly goalies today give immediate advantage to any shooter who can move the puck faster than a goalie can drop...I played butterfly for most game situations, then took the Richter approach on breakaway/SOs because angles & no holes.

Not sure what I did to Nevesis that he has me on hardcore ignore mode (WTF MAN??), but since my agreeing with him 99.9% of the time on this subject seems to piss him off, I would like to read what he might have to add or refute....

 

[CHGoalie27]

I don't want to harp on this but here are the graphs of Lundqvist's shootout save % through the years compared to average and there's also a line for his career average over league average.

View attachment 90327

So yes he does better than the league average pretty significantly and his save % is more erratic than I expected (also apparently he was really good in 11-12, I thought he was mediocre).

However the trend is going downward:

View attachment 90329

In relation, what's the trend of shooters deciding to slow down and shoot instead of speed up and deke over the same period of time?


...and if you think a top 10 all time winning goalie (on teams where net protection was not the focus of the defense) was mediocre in the one season he had the stats to win the Vezina...

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Actually coming in slow is worse for goalies for 3 reasons, 1)the shooter has more time to decide B) the best players can release the puck without barely moving their bodies/giving hint, and until Sumos are given goalie pads Ben Bishop isn't 6 x 4 in area coverage....but mentioning Bishop, I wouldn't take any other approach but to shoot for the 5. On goalies that you can kick a FG btw the uprights, gotta shoot for the best chance.....on everyone else, if there's no shot, give an extreme deke backhand and if goalie don't bite, release with some lift. If he does, the shooter can pull the puck from one side to the other faster than a goalie can move side to side.....like if Bure gave more of an extreme first deke on Richter he might not have had a choice but to bite or Bure could've easily decided to go backhand (and I'm sure we can all agree that 35 was the most undekeable, most reliable breakaway goalie ever by 10 miles)...then who knows where we all are today...remember the penalty shot that beat him? Straight shot that an uncomfortable amount of people here would consider soft.

With a lot less ramble- the shooter always has the advantage basically because of the 6x4 area coverage thing and can only benefit with more time.

oh yeah, 3) this shouldn't go for what should be the most fit goalies on earth- but staying in that just barely off the ice crouch is a fat ***** on the lower body support joints!

Personally, I had a much easier time dealing with dekes, especially if they sped up. All these butterfly goalies today give immediate advantage to any shooter who can move the puck faster than a goalie can drop...I played butterfly for most game situations, then took the Richter approach on breakaway/SOs because angles & no holes.

Not sure what I did to Nevesis that he has me on hardcore ignore mode (WTF MAN??), but since my agreeing with him 99.9% of the time on this subject seems to piss him off, I would like to read what he might have to add or refute....

Yeah, I mean I agree with basically everything you say here. With more time to think about it, I guess what I want to see more is just variation and variety for particular players. Don't go slow every time, don't go fast every time. Have a few moves that you know you have mastered at your disposal that all come from different angles, speeds, etc. Basically to always keep the goalies guessing.

I was basing my opinion a little too much on personal experience, I was always one of the best at penalty shots/shootouts/breakaways at every level, Snowblind would've loved me as his goalie if we were teammates. I just know from personal experience the breakaway shots I always had the most trouble with was a player catching me a second late reacting to a quick shot either 5-hole or just off the post stick side as I'm moving back. Maybe I'm also thinking a little too much as in game breakaways vs penalty shots. Basically timing it perfectly so it's a split second before I'm expecting it and as I'm moving backwards. I always had tops reflexes and am a bit of a gumby so I always made/make (though at 28 my flexibility is waning) crazy desperation saves and such.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

In relation, what's the trend of shooters deciding to slow down and shoot instead of speed up and deke over the same period of time?


...and if you think a top 10 all time winning goalie (on teams where net protection was not the focus of the defense) was mediocre in the one season he had the stats to win the Vezina...

I didn't think he was mediocre in general, I thought he was mediocre in the shootout. That was one of the mysteries for me all these years. I think him never going 3 for 3, which is something I tracked clouded my mind. In addition to that he had his best season in the shootout of his career the year before.

As far as your first question, not sure if it's serious or not. There's no way I can get that stat.

 

[chosen]

Hot takes...come get your hot takes!! So much tragically wrong in this post.Not surprising though.

Not surprising, at all.

 

[chosen]

They can also lose to any team in East in a 7 game series.

The West is the same.

Any other directions left?

 

[chosen]

You're just being selective with what you're looking at. You can't say "oh he has to go 3-3 every single time" every shootout is different. He got beat by the shootout jedi in Nielsen, how about his team provides him some support?

Wanna over analyze every attempt, let's do it for the Rangers considering they couldn't score. 1.) Zucc waited until he was too close and forced a shot directly into Howard instead of making a move. Howard didn't even have to move. 2.) Zibanejad missed the net. 3.) Shatty made a bunch of moves until he was too close and put it in the outside of the net, Howard didn't even have to touch it.

And as for getting faked out by Hank Z, who cares if it didn't go in? I don't care if he gets deked out of the crease on every attempt if they don't go in.

Selective is being generous.