GDT: NEW YORK ISLANDERS VS NEW JERSEY DEVILS @ 7PM GDT (THE REVERSE RETRO EDITION)

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He can't control his wingers missing chances or hitting posts. Johnsson and Palmieri haven't finished a fraction of their chances. Hughes was never going to be a 30+ goal scorer.
Last year it was his wingers fault also. I suppose if you pair him with elite goal scorer we'll see results....But if you pair anyone with an elite goal scorer they will see results...And therein lies the problem. If Jack needs better components to be a competent contributor, how much value does he hold?
 
Last year it was his wingers fault also. I suppose if you pair him with elite goal scorer we'll see results....But if you pair anyone with an elite goal scorer they will see results...And therein lies the problem. If Jack needs better components to be a competent contributor, how much value does he hold?

Are Kyle Palmieri and Andreas Johnsson suitable linemates for a top line center. I would tend to argue no, especially on a contender. I don't think either would sniff the top two 2 lines on most NHL teams, regardless of Palmieri's results being forced 1st line/PP minutes the past 4 years. Should Hughes be doing better, probably but between the PP being abysmal and his linemates, I think he is doing fine. He is only 19 years old.
 
Last year it was his wingers fault also. I suppose if you pair him with elite goal scorer we'll see results....But if you pair anyone with an elite goal scorer they will see results...And therein lies the problem. If Jack needs better components to be a competent contributor, how much value does he hold?

Styles make fights. Hughes is a facilitator. You can see that by watching him. He's shooting but his real skill is making passes and transitioning the puck. I do think teams are watching him now and he'll have to adjust. The talent looks like it's there and it can translate. I am not sure if it's fair to say he needs elite goal scorers to be successful so much as he needs competent guys who belong in a top six scoring role to fairly evaluate him. This season you can't say Palms and Johnsson are really top six guys. They are scrapping and trying hard but the results aren't there and I'm sure no one is more frustrated by it than they are. I find it difficult to lay blame for the poor record on guys in their first couple of years. I think the bigger problem is the vets are just not good but as always, that's an opinion and you may see it differently.
 
I feel bad for the fans that went to see the game. They look beat. They look tired. Uninterested. Uneventful. Team that lacks to produce scoring chances, let alone high danger scoring chances. I said this last week too, but we just cant generate offense. I know a lot of you say that we lack finish, we lack shooters, goal scorers. But even if we had better scorers, tonight they wouldve not helped at all. They cant finish chances we dont generate. How many actual scoring chances we generated in roughly four minutes with the goalie pulled? Gusev open net and the eventual Wood goal that was already too late. Most of the time was spent passing the puck between the D on the blue line.


I also dont understand the personel choices on that 5on3 PP. I dont think Jack had been out there. I understand Wood in front of the net, Palms at shooting position, Zacha as the hot hand, your choice of D to QB it.. and then JOHNSSON? Literally just get Jack out there and give him the 20 seconds to find either Palms or Zacha for one timer to atleast get a shot at goal rather than giving the time to someone who has been glued to his wing for weeks without nothing to show for it. Sigh..

I thought they were pretty awful on weekend. Couldve easily got shutout by Caps, both of our goals were bad goals. I expected some.. atleast some line up changes.. but we roll in with the same line up and put out even less of an effort (I know we outshot them but how much of it actually mattered?) .. at this point its mind boggling how is Ryan Murray out of the lineup if its not injury related or he said something really bad. I get it. Send a message since he was doing worse after Covid. When is the message being sent to.. PK? Vatanen? Palmieri? Johnsson? And I hate to say this cause I love him, but also Zajac. Gusev too but he has been out of the lineup already. It just looks like he forgot how to play hockey.

Send a message and healthy scratch a player or two to get younger, hungrier guys in. I'm sure guys like Kuok and Merkley would love to get back in. You think they'd produce any less on a top 6 role for a game or two? You know.. I fully expect Shara or Maltsev or Bastian etc to have bad games and to make bad decisions. But right now the bad decisions are coming from the players you should consider if not the leadership group of this team, at the very least the veteran presence.

And look, I know PK is not getting scratched. He makes too much and is too big of a name. Palms is not getting scratched either. I just wish someone had the balls to do such things in order to tell it to their faces that you guys are supposed to be the leaders of this team and right now youre the much bigger problem than the young guys.

Bring in Murray, Kuokkanen and Merkley next game. At the very least its fresh legs in a very tough schedule. This team also looks tired and its understandable. That makes it even more questionable to not have any changes to the line up.

Maybe I'm too harsh, I dont know.
 
I think you’re missing the point. I never expected the team to win a lot of games. What I was hoping for was for our young guns who are supposed to be future superstars showing that they are in fact superstars. Blackwood has lived up to it. Ty Smith has had a very good rookie campaign so far but it’s still a small sample size so jury is out. Jack looked like a #1 pick for the first ten games but since then he’s returned to his rookie form. Nico still needs to prove he can produce better than second line C, but he’s starting to look like someone who can’t consistently stay in the lineup due to being injury prone.

On top of that we have zero vets we can rely on in the interim because Gusev just straight sucks and is not what he was hyped up to be, and Palmieri is about as consistent as the kids. On D it’s all spare parts plus a rookie.

Significant improvement in on-ice results still seems much further away than most people here are willing to admit.

I agree with you, our guys have struggled the last bit for sure. I'm not sure what other fans expectations were of this team but like you, I didn't believe they were going to win a lot of games. What I did expect us to be was competitive and for the most part, we have been.

Ruff is absolutely right. This franchise needs to realize that giving good effort and not winning isn't acceptable. Think about how much losing we have endured over the years. It creates a losing culture and that is tough to shake. It's going to take some time to turn things around.

I hope nobody around here looked at the first 10 games and thought playoffs. If so, I think we have some delusional fans.

Hughes is going to be inconsistent, Smith is going to be inconsistent. Even Blackwood is going to go through some rough patches. I look at our team and I don't see superstars (Hughes is the only candidate).
 
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I'm way past looking for silver linings...He could have 30 shots a game and if doesn't translate into points, it aint helping us. 1 PP assist playing 19:18 a game over 5 games is dreadful for someone who is supposes to be a future leader.

I guess the question is this. What are you expectations of Hughes as a 19 year old in his second year in the league? In a normal 82 game season, I was hoping for 40 points after seeing what he did during his rookie season. I watch the games and I see a kid trying to do too much out there. That's not his problem, that's a team problem.

If we're expecting Hughes to be a superstar already I think fans need a reality check. That may take 2-3 seasons after this one, and only if we surround him with better talent.
 
Never saw this level of concern with No. 37 all these years and that's all you need to know about motive.
I don't think anyone at any point was ever looking toward Zacha to be organization transforming player? I certainly wasn't...I remember when we picked Guerin out of the New England Junior League at #5. I had similar expectation for Zacha as I did Guerin in 1989. A piece to the puzzle...Certainly not a mover of the organization

When you pick #1 over all, not once but twice, I think the expectation is massively different. When you pick #1 you should be expecting the level of player that CAN transform the organization and make the team and the players around them better.

I think your accusation of hidden motives is ridiculous. If you want to make believe that a #1 overall should viewed the same as a #6 I don't know what to tell you...

Edit: And I have criticized Zacha plenty over the years...I just haven't over the last two years cause he's been producing.
 
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I feel bad for the fans that went to see the game. They look beat. They look tired. Uninterested. Uneventful. Team that lacks to produce scoring chances, let alone high danger scoring chances. I said this last week too, but we just cant generate offense. I know a lot of you say that we lack finish, we lack shooters, goal scorers. But even if we had better scorers, tonight they wouldve not helped at all. They cant finish chances we dont generate. How many actual scoring chances we generated in roughly four minutes with the goalie pulled? Gusev open net and the eventual Wood goal that was already too late. Most of the time was spent passing the puck between the D on the blue line.


I also dont understand the personel choices on that 5on3 PP. I dont think Jack had been out there. I understand Wood in front of the net, Palms at shooting position, Zacha as the hot hand, your choice of D to QB it.. and then JOHNSSON? Literally just get Jack out there and give him the 20 seconds to find either Palms or Zacha for one timer to atleast get a shot at goal rather than giving the time to someone who has been glued to his wing for weeks without nothing to show for it. Sigh..

I thought they were pretty awful on weekend. Couldve easily got shutout by Caps, both of our goals were bad goals. I expected some.. atleast some line up changes.. but we roll in with the same line up and put out even less of an effort (I know we outshot them but how much of it actually mattered?) .. at this point its mind boggling how is Ryan Murray out of the lineup if its not injury related or he said something really bad. I get it. Send a message since he was doing worse after Covid. When is the message being sent to.. PK? Vatanen? Palmieri? Johnsson? And I hate to say this cause I love him, but also Zajac. Gusev too but he has been out of the lineup already. It just looks like he forgot how to play hockey.

Send a message and healthy scratch a player or two to get younger, hungrier guys in. I'm sure guys like Kuok and Merkley would love to get back in. You think they'd produce any less on a top 6 role for a game or two? You know.. I fully expect Shara or Maltsev or Bastian etc to have bad games and to make bad decisions. But right now the bad decisions are coming from the players you should consider if not the leadership group of this team, at the very least the veteran presence.

And look, I know PK is not getting scratched. He makes too much and is too big of a name. Palms is not getting scratched either. I just wish someone had the balls to do such things in order to tell it to their faces that you guys are supposed to be the leaders of this team and right now youre the much bigger problem than the young guys.

Bring in Murray, Kuokkanen and Merkley next game. At the very least its fresh legs in a very tough schedule. This team also looks tired and its understandable. That makes it even more questionable to not have any changes to the line up.

Maybe I'm too harsh, I dont know.

You say the team looks tired. I hate making excuses as much as the next guy but is it possible some of our players are still feeling the lingering effects of COVID?. I mean yeah they are back on the ice playing but that doesn't mean they aren't still suffering from COVID longer term symptoms. It's not like COVID symptoms magically go away in all cases...
 
You say the team looks tired. I hate making excuses as much as the next guy but is it possible some of our players are still feeling the lingering effects of COVID?. I mean yeah they are back on the ice playing but that doesn't mean they aren't still suffering from COVID longer term symptoms. It's not like COVID symptoms magically go away in all cases...

It’s definitely possible, I think Buffalo was something like 4-3-3 before they got the cov, and haven’t been able to beat anyone else than us (another covid team) since.
 
I guess the question is this. What are you expectations of Hughes as a 19 year old in his second year in the league? In a normal 82 game season, I was hoping for 40 points after seeing what he did during his rookie season. I watch the games and I see a kid trying to do too much out there. That's not his problem, that's a team problem.

If we're expecting Hughes to be a superstar already I think fans need a reality check. That may take 2-3 seasons after this one, and only if we surround him with better talent.

My expectation would have been 40-ish points last season around .5 PPG ...And coming into this season building on that...Pushing toward .7 (He is doing that right now (.63 ppg) but it is slipping fast) and making his line mates better...

Don't tell me "I am never going to score a lot - I'm a facilitator" Then blame your wingers for not scoring....That's just bullshit.

If you are an elite playmaker you can enable your wingers....Sergie Brylin had his highest goal total ever playing with a 2nd year Gomez(yes he was 21 who gives a f***)...Gomez made every player he played with better...Because... he was actually an elite playmaker.
 
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I don't think anyone at any point was ever looking toward Zacha to be organization transforming player? I certainly wasn't...I remember when we picked Guerin out of the New England Junior League at #5. I had similar expectation for Zacha as I did Guerin in 1989. A piece to the puzzle...Certainly not a mover of the organization

When you pick #1 over all, not once but twice, I think the expectation is massively different. When you pick #1 you should be expecting the level of player that CAN transform the organization and make the team and the players around them better.

I think your accusation of hidden motives is ridiculous. If you want to make believe that a #1 overall should viewed the same as a #6 I don't know what to tell you...

Edit: And I have criticized Zacha plenty over the years...I just haven't over the last two years cause he's been producing.

Unfortunately, we have to admit that we had the #1 overall pick in 2 drafts that weren't overly strong. Hughes draft is still up in the air to be decided but the Hischier draft was a weaker one. Hindsight, yeah we probably should have picked Pettersson. But if you go back and remember the draft talk, nobody expected Pettersson to be taken #1 OA. It was between Nico, Patrick and Heiskanen. Nico is never going to be a true superstar that you are hoping out of a #1 OA. Nico can be a good two-way centre for us, at least that's my expectation.

Hughes is the one guy who can be a superstar for us but people have to remember he's 18 and he's not a big bodied player. Should he have played as an 18 year old with no college/junior experience in the NHL? Probably not. He was the first ever player to go straight from NTDP to NHL. Would it have been different if he was 6'4, 220? Maybe.

I have high expectations for Hughes but fans around here talk about him like he should already be a superstar and team leader at 19 when he isn't surrounded with 1st line caliber talent. Nobody he has ever played with has anywhere near the skill level he has.
 
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You say the team looks tired. I hate making excuses as much as the next guy but is it possible some of our players are still feeling the lingering effects of COVID?. I mean yeah they are back on the ice playing but that doesn't mean they aren't still suffering from COVID longer term symptoms. It's not like COVID symptoms magically go away in all cases...
Yes, covid can very much be an issue (with the schedule on top of it) or part of it, but some of the points like some guys deserving scratching and us not generating much still apply.
 
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Unfortunately, we have to admit that we had the #1 overall pick in 2 drafts that weren't overly strong. Hughes draft is still up in the air to be decided but the Hischier draft was a weaker one. Hindsight, yeah we probably should have picked Pettersson. But if you go back and remember the draft talk, nobody expected Pettersson to be taken #1 OA. It was between Nico, Patrick and Heiskanen. Nico is never going to be a true superstar that you are hoping out of a #1 OA. Nico can be a good two-way centre for us, at least that's my expectation.

Hughes is the one guy who can be a superstar for us but people have to remember he's 18 and he's not a big bodied player. Should he have played as an 18 year old with no college/junior experience in the NHL? Probably not. He was the first ever player to go straight from NTDP to NHL. Would it have been different if he was 6'4, 220? Maybe.

I have high expectations for Hughes but fans around here talk about him like he should already be a superstar and team leader at 19 when he isn't surrounded with 1st line caliber talent. Nobody he has ever played with has anywhere near the skill level he has.
Two things:
1. People around here act like cause he's 19 he shouldn't be judged...Or perhaps some sort of switch will be flipped when he turns 20 or 21 or something? I don't know it's weird.

The other thing - Can you define those "high expectation" Do you expect Hughes to eventually be a top 10 scorer in the league? Top 20? 30? Our first 100 point player? Our first 50 goal scorer?
What is the expectation here?
 
Two things:
1. People around here act like cause he's 19 he shouldn't be judged...Or perhaps some sort of switch will be flipped when he turns 20 or 21 or something? I don't know it's weird.

The other thing - Can you define those "high expectation" Do you expect Hughes to eventually be a top 10 scorer in the league? Top 20? 30? What is the expectation here?

I think he is a PPG player in his prime with the potential to put up 90 points in career years. Where that puts him in the league scoring I don't know but I would have to assume 90 points would be top 20.

This also depends on who he is playing with. I get what you are saying about franchise type players being good enough to raise the level of other linemates but living in the GTA, I'm old enough to remember the Leafs wasting the Sundin years playing him with plug after plug and expecting him to turn around the franchise by himself. It didn't happen and they were delusional to expect Sundin to be able to turn guys like Modin into elite players.
 
I think he is a PPG player in his prime with the potential to put up 90 points in career years. Where that puts him in the league scoring I don't know but I would have to assume 90 points would be top 20.

This also depends on who he is playing with. I get what you are saying about franchise type players being good enough to raise the level of other linemates but living in the GTA, I'm old enough to remember the Leafs wasting the Sundin years playing him with plug after plug and expecting him to turn around the franchise by himself. It didn't happen and they were delusional to expect Sundin to be able to turn guys like Modin into elite players.
Sundin always produced...No matter which year he always was around 1 ppg as a Leaf... That is sort of the point.

At 19 however he was at .74 PPG. I don't believe we have a player on this team capable of .74 PPG this season.
 
Sundin always produced...No matter which year he alway was around 1 ppg as a Leaf... That is sort of the point.

At 19 however he was at .74 PPG. I don't believe we have a player on this capable of .74 PPG this season.

You said yourself Hughes is at 0.63 PPG right now. I think it's realistic to think he can reach .74 by the end of the season. I would be happy if he stays at .63. Not every player has the same trajectory into an elite player.

Don't get me wrong, if Hughes can become anything close to Sundin it's a win for us.

What are your expectations of him?
 
You said yourself Hughes is at 0.63 PPG right now. I think it's realistic to think he can reach .74 by the end of the season. I would be happy if he stays at .63. Not every player has the same trajectory into an elite player.
I think I would too. The problem is a couple of weeks ago he was .85 PPG, Last week he was at .70 PPG....This week he is at .63 PPG.
 
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