New York City Thread: Part III (Info in OP)

[True Blue]

The role of government is not only to protect your freedom to do something, but also to protect society from dangerous actions of others.

Fine, but shouldn't the "protections" be rooted in some sort of logic? When you yell and scream about "data" and then make seemingly arbitrary decisions that do not see to be rooted in the vaunted data, it does not appear that you are making a credible argument.

 

[True Blue]

I’m of two minds with this. I think shutting things down is the right thing to do. The next few months are going to be historically tragic (as if it wasn’t bad enough). However, if you’re going to ask businesses to shut down, you have to reimburse them for the losses, which is what should be happening via a Federal Stimulus plan. The lack of support for individuals and small businesses has been nothing sort of paltry, and it shows the priorities of our government.

Just to play devil's advocate here, how much money has already been given in stimulus? And where does the cash come from for future stimulus? Is the expectation that the federal government can just continue to pump out stimulus after stimulus?

Just to blow this out to crazy proportions to illustrate a point, about what, 75% of all of the spreads have occurred inside homes? 1.2% is from restaurants and .06% is from gyms. By killing off the, and I will use Cuomo's own words here, de minimums and insignificant spread, how will that affect where the great majority of spread is happening? What if the rate of businesses was 0 and the rate of home spread was 100%? Would a complete lockdown still be in order despite the fact that no spreading events occur in these small businesses?

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Just to play devil's advocate here, how much money has already been given in stimulus? And where does the cash come from for future stimulus? Is the expectation that the federal government can just continue to pump out stimulus after stimulus?

Just to blow this out to crazy proportions to illustrate a point, about what, 75% of all of the spreads have occurred inside homes? 1.2% is from restaurants and .06% is from gyms. By killing off the, and I will use Cuomo's own words here, de minimums and insignificant spread, how will that affect where the great majority of spread is happening? What if the rate of businesses was 0 and the rate of home spread was 100%? Would a complete lockdown still be in order despite the fact that no spreading events occur in these small businesses?

I’d give consideration to your first paragraph if our government didn’t routinely print trillions to prop up failing CEO’s, multinational corporations, or military spending. Its not about whether we can or can’t, it’s about the priorities of our government and society.

 

[NYR Viper]

I’d give consideration to your first paragraph if our government didn’t routinely print trillions to prop up failing CEO’s, multinational corporations, or military spending. Its not about whether we can or can’t, it’s about the priorities of our government and society.

I'm of the mind that we should fix the actual issue (which is your latter point), not continue down the rabbit hole of handing out cash

 

[NYR Viper]

The role of government is not only to protect your freedom to do something, but also to protect society from dangerous actions of others.

Go build your libertarian "paradise" elsewhere.

Quite literally, that 'libertarian "paradise"' is pretty much EXACTLY what this country was founded on.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

I'm of the mind that we should fix the actual issue (which is your latter point), not continue down the rabbit hole of handing out cash

What would he your solution then? Even if you believe in returning to a gold standard (which I’m not, but I understand why some want to), you’re in a situation where you can provide relief to your citizens who are desperate for it. Helping your poor and working class shouldn’t be where you draw the line.

 

[True Blue]

I’d give consideration to your first paragraph if our government didn’t routinely print trillions to prop up failing CEO’s, multinational corporations, or military spending. Its not about whether we can or can’t, it’s about the priorities of our government and society.

That does not actually address the question as to where the cash is supposed to come from? The biggest revenue production comes from taxation. If you, and just to put a round number on it, have killed off 40% of small businesses, where is that revenue coming from?

The government is not a printing press for cash

What would he your solution then?

How about you start with whether or not blanket lockdowns are the answer? Let small businesses that the data shows are not responsible for the great, great majority of the spread continue to be open and allow people to make up their own minds on whether or not they are willing to patronize such establishments.

 

[NYR Viper]

What would he your solution then? Even if you believe in returning to a gold standard (which I’m not, but I understand why some want to), you’re in a situation where you can provide relief to your citizens who are desperate for it. Helping your poor and working class shouldn’t be where you draw the line.

I'll just say this, the Federal Government was never supposed to have the ability, nor the resources, to support the entire American population in a time like this. The local states need to look at themselves in the mirror and make those decisions and fortunately or unfortunately for their constituents they need to live with those decisions or lobby their local politicians to make changes.

This goes for the 'bail-outs' as well. That's complete and utter horseshit that big businesses got cash to start all of this.

Perhaps I have a different viewpoint than most here as I have been travelling and supporting the food industry since all of this started. I work with guys who have been travelling 7 days a week for months on end while everyone was cowering inside saying it was too dangerous to go to work. There's a happy medium here rather than shutting everything down and looking to Uncle Sam to pay the bills. I think we've officially reached the point where the cure is worse than the disease.

 

[True Blue]

Perhaps I have a different viewpoint than most here as I have been travelling and supporting the food industry since all of this started. I work with guys who have been travelling 7 days a week for months on end while everyone was cowering inside saying it was too dangerous to go to work. There's a happy medium here rather than shutting everything down and looking to Uncle Sam to pay the bills. I think we've officially reached the point where the cure is worse than the disease.

Especially when these small businesses have shown that they can operate safely.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

That does not actually address the question as to where the cash is supposed to come from? The biggest revenue production comes from taxation. If you, and just to put a round number on it, have killed off 40% of small businesses, where is that revenue coming from?

The government is not a printing press for cash

How about you start with whether or not blanket lockdowns are the answer? Let small businesses that the data shows are not responsible for the great, great majority of the spread continue to be open and allow people to make up their own minds on whether or not they are willing to patronize such establishments.

This is a deeper conversation than can be had on a Hockey Message Board. I really recommend “The Deficit Myth,” by Stephanie Kelton.

 

[True Blue]

This is a deeper conversation than can be had on a Hockey Message Board. I really recommend “The Deficit Myth,” by Stephanie Kelton.

I know it. And while I will certainly not disparage anyone's points of views, such a book can only be published by someone who is an ardent Bernie Sanders supporter. Which is completely fine, but is ummm....colored with certain view points. Wasn't she in fact his senior economical advisor? So while sure to be cheered on by the likes of AOC is great, there are other viewpoints. Including those that view her viewpoints as radical.

Sure the government can simply turn on the printing press. But that will lead to inflation and eventually hyper inflation. It will also inevitably get to devaluation of assets. Also, if you can just keep printing cash, then all taxation can be canceled as well, right? I mean her central assertion is that even a 1% unemployment percent is too high and that there is always room for benefits of all kinds. Sure in a utopia, her economy is fully on board, with canceled student debt, a full-on Green New Deal, free college, free child care, a guarantee of a federal job for anyone, expanded benefits, tax cuts, etc.....I am sure I am leaving something out. Oh, yes, wasn't there also about a national high rail system as well?

Anyway, I am not disparaging your views. I just see things somewhat differently. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

I know it. And while I will certainly not disparage anyone's points of views, such a book can only be published by someone who is an ardent Bernie Sanders supporter. Which is completely fine, but is ummm....colored with certain view points. Wasn't she in fact his senior economical advisor? So while sure to be cheered on by the likes of AOC is great, there are other viewpoints. Including those that view her viewpoints as radical.

Sure the government can simply turn on the printing press. But that will lead to inflation and eventually hyper inflation. It will also inevitably get to devaluation of assets. Also, if you can just keep printing cash, then all taxation can be canceled as well, right? I mean her central assertion is that even a 1% unemployment percent is too high and that there is always room for benefits of all kinds. Sure in a utopia, her economy is fully on board, with canceled student debt, a full-on Green New Deal, free college, free child care, a guarantee of a federal job for anyone, expanded benefits, tax cuts, etc.....I am sure I am leaving something out. Oh, yes, wasn't there also about a national high rail system as well?

Anyway, I am not disparaging your views. I just see things somewhat differently. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I don’t consider AOC or Bernie Sanders are particularly radical, but to each his own. As soon as someone is elected that sounds like Michael Parenti I’ll believe there’s a true radical in American politics. Our “far left” are essentially just Social Democrats.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Quite literally, that 'libertarian "paradise"' is pretty much EXACTLY what this country was founded on.

No, it was based on Enlightenment ideas of individual liberties and a representative government that would secure those rights, while protecting against those who would violated those natural rights. A government who doesn't regulate these bad actors is not what the framers had in mind.

Freedom from is just as important to liberty as freedom to.

 

[True Blue]

I don’t consider AOC or Bernie Sanders are particularly radical, but to each his own. As soon as someone is elected that sounds like Michael Parenti I’ll believe there’s a true radical in American politics. Our “far left” are essentially just Social Democrats.

Like you said, probably too deep for a hockey board discussion. To me, there is no difference between Social Democrats and Socialists. They are the same thing.

 

[Off Sides]

What does the data say about those who survived covid?

Will, in the future, merely having had covid in the past be considered a preexisting condition?

Only using deaths, and/or even refining that further by using age or commodities to determine what the overall heath effects are seems to be leaving out a whole lot no one knows yet.

COVID-19 (coronavirus): Long-term effects

COVID-19 and Your Health

Head of White House security office has his right foot amputated because of severe COVID-19 and is facing 'staggering medical bills,' new report says

 

[Chaels Arms]

In my own personal experience, it seems the Manhattan restaurant industry is getting effected much more heavily than the outer boroughs. When people talk about "NYC is dead" I think many of them are really saying "Manhattan is dead." In my neighborhood in the Bronx which is packed with a million different restaurants and takeout places I know of only one that's closed since March and they closed in late April which leads me to believe they must have been on the ropes even before the shutdown. All of my favorite Queens spots are still functioning. Again, I'm sure all these places are losing money compared to normal but it hasn't led to permanent shutdowns on the level I've seen in Manhattan.

I've been in to my office in midtown about a 10-12 times total since March. The last time was about two weeks ago. My top 3 favorite lunch spots are all gone for good. I discovered this all at once as I walked from one to the other my first day back in August and saw them all boarded up with good-bye letters nailed to the windows. Lots of other places were closed down as well in a few block radius around my office. I can't even imagine what it's like in the financial district which was already a ghost town pre-pandemic anytime outside usual M-F working hours.

Just looking at it on a micro level... I went from spending significant sums of money at midtown restaurants/cafes/takeout places when I was commuting in every day in the pre-pandemic world to now spending that money at my local restaurants. My favorite local deli which I used to only be able to get lunch from on Saturday is now my everyday lunch spot while working from home.

 

[GordonGecko]

In my own personal experience, it seems the Manhattan restaurant industry is getting effected much more heavily than the outer boroughs. When people talk about "NYC is dead" I think many of them are really saying "Manhattan is dead." In my neighborhood in the Bronx which is packed with a million different restaurants and takeout places I know of only one that's closed since March and they closed in late April which leads me to believe they must have been on the ropes even before the shutdown. All of my favorite Queens spots are still functioning. Again, I'm sure all these places are losing money compared to normal but it hasn't led to permanent shutdowns on the level I've seen in Manhattan.

I've been in to my office in midtown about a 10-12 times total since March. The last time was about two weeks ago. My top 3 favorite lunch spots are all gone for good. I discovered this all at once as I walked from one to the other my first day back in August and saw them all boarded up with good-bye letters nailed to the windows. Lots of other places were closed down as well in a few block radius around my office. I can't even imagine what it's like in the financial district which was already a ghost town pre-pandemic anytime outside usual M-F working hours.

Just looking at it on a micro level... I went from spending significant sums of money at midtown restaurants/cafes/takeout places when I was commuting in every day in the pre-pandemic world to now spending that money at my local restaurants. My favorite local deli which I used to only be able to get lunch from on Saturday is now my everyday lunch spot while working from home.

This is going to be a problem for the Knicks & Rangers, their ticket prices are astronomical because of the (1) tourists and (2) corporate accounts. There are no more tourists, half the companies have told people to work from home for the foreseeable future, and corporate clients aren't travelling. Who knows how long that takes to recover, if ever fully

 

[GoAwayGiannone]

Well hey, on the bright side a lot of the transplants from Ohio or Missouri and similar places are fleeing the city too.

 

[bl02]

This is going to be a problem for the Knicks & Rangers, their ticket prices are astronomical because of the (1) tourists and (2) corporate accounts. There are no more tourists, half the companies have told people to work from home for the foreseeable future, and corporate clients aren't travelling. Who knows how long that takes to recover, if ever fully

Wow maybe the average person can possibly go to a Ranger game again. Probably wishful thinking.

 

[RosensRug]

This is going to be a problem for the Knicks & Rangers, their ticket prices are astronomical because of the (1) tourists and (2) corporate accounts. There are no more tourists, half the companies have told people to work from home for the foreseeable future, and corporate clients aren't travelling. Who knows how long that takes to recover, if ever fully

Tourism is down for sure compared to normal levels but there are certainly a lot of tourists doing the standard holiday stuff. You wouldn't think anything was really different if you walk through Macy's or the Hudson Yards Mall most nights with the exception of mask wearing.

I think I have an unpopular opinion but once the vaccine is rolled out tourism is going to pickup faster than most people expect. Looking at the airline industry they're flying near full planes overseas with restrictions in place, once those are eased I don't see why the trend would reverse and less people would be flying.

 

[Crease]

I also suspect tourism to come back quickly once the vaccine is broadly available. Corporate travel is another story.

Just a comment on domestic vs. international travel. My wife has flown to Indonesia through Japan a couple times during the pandemic. The NYC-Tokyo route is utterly quiet. Like, 8 passengers total on 260-seat 787. I'd sooner fly to Bali to anywhere domestically right now. The domestic flights are packed.

 

[True Blue]

Just a comment on domestic vs. international travel. My wife has flown to Indonesia through Japan a couple times during the pandemic. The NYC-Tokyo route is utterly quiet. Like, 8 passengers total on 260-seat 787.

Have heard much the same thing

 

[RosensRug]

I also suspect tourism to come back quickly once the vaccine is broadly available. Corporate travel is another story.

Just a comment on domestic vs. international travel. My wife has flown to Indonesia through Japan a couple times during the pandemic. The NYC-Tokyo route is utterly quiet. Like, 8 passengers total on 260-seat 787. I'd sooner fly to Bali to anywhere domestically right now. The domestic flights are packed.

Yup the asian routes have been consolidated or cut at my company due to lack of interest for one reason or another. Looking at London, Mexico, Tel Aviv, and parts of Africa its insane seeing close to full 777s and 330s making the trip on a daily or twice daily basis during all of this.

 

[sbjnyc]

I also suspect tourism to come back quickly once the vaccine is broadly available. Corporate travel is another story.

Just a comment on domestic vs. international travel. My wife has flown to Indonesia through Japan a couple times during the pandemic. The NYC-Tokyo route is utterly quiet. Like, 8 passengers total on 260-seat 787. I'd sooner fly to Bali to anywhere domestically right now. The domestic flights are packed.

I had plans to go to Japan in October but they wouldn't even permit me to enter let alone quarantine. Other countries are more open and simply required testing. Once those restrictions rop I'll go back to traveling. And as someone who works on Hudson yards, I'll head in daily as soon as my company allows it.

 

[GordonGecko]

And as someone who works on Hudson yards, I'll head in daily as soon as my company allows it.

I was jusssst about to go to the new glass observation deck when all this blew up