GDT: New Jersey Devils vs. Washington Capitals - 7:30pm

[Unknown Caller]

you dont think an average goalie should make the occasional big stop i do. last night the average caps goalie did make those big saves and our guys didnt and thats what the difference ended up being.

Just use xG and see how many goals above/below expected the goaltenders gave up. It’s not a complex analysis. They sucked.

 

[Devs3cups]

Also Luke missing the net when he had half the net to tie it up and Jack missing on his rush

Man, he missed by about 2 inches, unfortunate he didn’t hit his spot, he had the right idea with the screen in front. He’s gonna be so good.

 

[JrFischer54]

Just need the Preds to really fall flat on their faces. Saros is the only potentially available guy I have any interest in, and I'd back up the truck for him (relative to most goalie trades).

a lot of IF's here but if the current goaltending doesnt get better if fitz thinks saros is the answer then make the preds an offer they cant refuse and then ink him to a long term deal i'm completely fine with it.

Just use xG and see how many goals above/below expected the goaltenders gave up. It’s not a complex analysis. They sucked.

yeah thats fine i just use my eyeballs and see the goals they gave up. a lot of people or maybe just one poster wants to blame the defense and thats fine they can certainly be better but the goalie has to make a timely big time save.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I do feel like the Devils, when they breakdown which has happened too frequently this year, give opponents tons of space for their shots.

Teams that play a softer zone/man hybrid are less likely to get 4-5 defenders all on the wrong side of the ice or having defenders covering nothing. That’s just the weakness you have to accept to play the swarm.

Space and time aren’t accounted for in xGA and if the thing the Devils may be worst at isn’t accounted for in the metric, then the metric may not be a good measure for the team’s play.

I don't believe xG stats as currently compiled account for every factor of potentially bad defense. The Devils skaters played an objectively bad game last night, yet the xG implies they didn't.

So long as people take those stats as some kind of gospel, this discussion will be incredibly frustrating.

 

[JrFischer54]

The defense and goaltending was really bad last night, but has anyone touched on the chances to put this game away they didn’t take too? That game would have been put away if they converted on any one of the three breakaways they had on a bad goaltender.

I also cringed hard on that hit Hughes took from that Capital. Jack can’t put himself in positions to get trucked like that.

hey look at that an average goaltender making a big save! what a crazy concept! so it does happen!

 

[guitarguyvic]

you dont think an average goalie should make the occasional big stop i do. last night the average caps goalie did make those big saves and our guys didnt and thats what the difference ended up being.

The Caps goalie made a couple of big saves...so did Vitek. The difference to me is that the Caps didn't play like complete morons in their own end.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I don't believe xG stats as currently compiled account for every factor of potentially bad defense. The Devils skaters played an objectively bad game last night, yet the xG implies they didn't.

So long as people take those stats as some kind of gospel, this discussion will be incredibly frustrating.

Too many turnovers, but that game registers as a particularly bad game in your mind because nearly every dangerous chance went in.

 

[Devs3cups]

Too many turnovers, but that game registers as a particularly bad game in your mind because nearly every dangerous chance went in.

If we gave up 3 clear cut breakaways like the Caps did last night I’m sure that that would fall into the “bad defence” category, but since we didn’t convert they don’t count. The Caps didn’t play a solid defensive game.

 

[Nico Hischier]

The Devils played a horrible 1st period (as per usual this year) last night. They deserved to be losing after the 1st period.

But two of the goals Schmid allowed were bad. Especially the first one. The third one was ehhh. He didn’t play the second one so well, but that’s just nitpicking.

They didn’t play so bad that they should have been down 3-0 after the 1st, but they should have been down 1-0.

The squeaker through Vitek was also bad. It wasn’t even a nice deke, the guy fanned on the shot and it dribbled through.

I didn’t think the mantha goal was soft. It was an ugly breakdown and gave up a quick 2 on 1. Mantha shot inside the dots and it was a deceptive shot that would have beat a lot of nhl goalies.

When the game was tied and Luke Hughes tried to dangle, got hit hard, no one covered back for him, and washington scored was the softest goal and play all around.

 

[Bleedred]

I didn’t think the mantha goal was soft. It was an ugly breakdown and gave up a quick 2 on 1. Mantha shot inside the dots and it was a deceptive shot that would have beat a lot of nhl goalies.

When the game was tied and Luke Hughes tried to dangle, got hit hard, no one covered back for him, and washington scored was the softest goal and play all around.

It would have beaten a lot of NHL goalies, but a lot of NHL goalies also would have stopped it. Schmid has made that save before.

Shots on 2 on 1’s from the circle are not that dangerous when properly defended. They become dangerous when the pass gets over and it becomes an open net on the goalie.

That’s not what that was. It was a shot that slid right through his five hole.

Brodeur gave up a goal from the same spot through his arm in the final minute of regulation against Carolina in 2009 and we heard about how bad that goal was for years. This one was at least that bad.

And I don’t wanna hear about “well that’s a playoffs game”. It’s still a bad goal in the regular season.

People see or hear odd man rush and that makes it somehow much more dangerous. Those are very dangerous when the pass gets through. That’s not what happened on that goal.

There were some who also didn’t have a problem with the same type of goal (from the opposite circle) that beat him to make it 1-0 in the Islanders game. Also a bad goal, just like two others he allowed in that game.

 

[Bleedred]

you dont think an average goalie should make the occasional big stop i do. last night the average caps goalie did make those big saves and our guys didnt and thats what the difference ended up being.

I don’t think he made many big saves at all.

He looked like a career minor league/minor league ceiling goalie.

I didn’t even nail him with a goal stoppable, but the way he played some of those goals. Particularly the fourth one and I think the Nico goal were very interesting and weird.

 

[njdevil26]

The first period issues are alarming. This team has now scored 4, 3, 3, 5, 5, and 4 goals and how many of those were in the first period? 1? They have started all 6 games down a goal or more and only had 2 shots last night.

The second period they look like the best team in the league... then I don't know did they expect the Capitals to be shocked and just roll over? Back to absolute crap in the third.

Ruff is right they are soft... and I remember when Keefe said that about the Leafs, the team took it extremely personally so I hope the Devils do the same.

It is still early obviously but if the first period against the Sabres tomorrow is not their best first period of the season BY FAR then we have a problem.


The goaltending is worrying me too but this defense is giving up some grade A chances. This team is way too focused on their transition to offense that sometimes they forget the need the puck to get it going.

 

[Nico Hischier]

It would have beaten a lot of NHL goalies, but a lot of NHL goalies also would have stopped it. Schmid has made that save before.

Shots on 2 on 1’s from the circle are not that dangerous when properly defended. They become dangerous when the pass gets over and it becomes an open net on the goalie.

That’s not what that was. It was a shot that slid right through his five hole.

Brodeur gave up a goal from the same spot through his arm in the final minute of regulation against Carolina in 2009 and we heard about how bad that goal was for years. This one was at least that bad.

And I don’t wanna hear about “well that’s a playoffs game”. It’s still a bad goal in the regular season.

People see or hear odd man rush and that makes it somehow much more dangerous. Those are very dangerous when the pass gets through. That’s not what happened on that goal.

There were some who also didn’t have a problem with the same type of goal (from the opposite circle) that beat him to make it 1-0 in the Islanders game. Also a bad goal, just like two others he allowed in that game.

I just think it was a deceptive shot. Mantha never looked at the net once even when he shot the puck. Would have been a huge save if Schmid stopped it but that doesn’t mean it was a soft goal imo

 

[Devs3cups]

The first period issues are alarming. This team has now scored 4, 3, 3, 5, 5, and 4 goals and how many of those were in the first period? 1? They have started all 6 games down a goal or more and only had 2 shots last night.

The second period they look like the best team in the league... then I don't know did they expect the Capitals to be shocked and just roll over? Back to absolute crap in the third.

Ruff is right they are soft... and I remember when Keefe said that about the Leafs, the team took it extremely personally so I hope the Devils do the same.

It is still early obviously but if the first period against the Sabres tomorrow is not their best first period of the season BY FAR then we have a problem.


The goaltending is worrying me too but this defense is giving up some grade A chances. This team is way too focused on their transition to offense that sometimes they forget the need the puck to get it going.

We don’t have a problem if tomorrow's first period isn’t our best period of the year by far, come on now. We need better efforts in the first, I absolutely agree on that and we know they can be better. A good, strong first is all we need.

We’re 6 games into the season, it’s a process. One period tomorrow night won’t dictate anything about the season.

 

[Camille the Eel]

According to the “blame the goalie” argument, your team can play horribly but still should have won any close game because the goal tender didn’t make another save or two. You then go back and nitpick the goals and identify where he lost the game for you.

Every close loss can be judged the goalie’s fault, especially where he allowed a soft goal or two. But even where there aren’t obvious soft goals, the argument still complains he needed “to make a big stop” once in a while.

But there’s no denying we played like absolute shit last night. We came out in the 3d like we did in the first period, with our heads up our butts and no particular sense of urgency or effort. Like we thought, “Hey we’re up a goal now, piece of cake.” We made no effort as a team there.

 

[NJDevs26]

LOL what the heck kind of galaxy brain circular logic is this? Yes a no name goalie won the cup, because the other teams that got knocked out also had similar goalies...that's the entire point my guy. There aren't difference maker goalies out there. They don't exist. There are three in the whole league, they are locked up with their respective teams and aren't available. That's it. The end.

Any and every other goalie that Fitz might be able to land would require the team in front of them to play solid defense and not be complete f***ing morons with the puck in their own zone. If that's not happening, they will look like shit. We have seen countless examples of this throughout the league - and with our own team - for like five years now.

And two of THEM haven’t even been to the SCF yet, neither has Helle who Fitz and everyone else wanted this off-season

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

Last night we basically saw AHL goaltending for both teams.

 

[Devs3cups]

According to the “blame the goalie” argument, your team can play horribly but still should have won any close game because the goal tender didn’t make another save or two. You then go back and nitpick the goals and identify where he lost the game for you.

Every close loss can be judged the goalie’s fault, especially where he allowed a soft goal or two. But even where there aren’t obvious soft goals, the argument still complains he needed “to make a big stop” once in a while.

But there’s no denying we played like absolute shit last night. We came out in the 3d like we did in the first period, with our heads up out butts and no particular sense of urgency or effort. Like we thought, “Hey we’re up a goal now, piece of cake.” We made no effort as a team there.

The same argument can be done with the defence though. Let’s say you lose a 3-2 game. You’ve played perfect defence, except for 3 bad mistakes that resulted in goals. Is it the defence’s fault, or the goalie’s fault for not making big stops when your team has defended extremely well in front of you for the rest of the game? Are scoring/high danger chances a mulligan for goalies?

The team doesn’t need to play perfect defence for goalies to make saves, no team is perfect defensively. Some teams have goalies that mask some mistakes because they make the important saves on mistakes that, whether we like it or not, will happen in a hockey game.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't believe xG stats as currently compiled account for every factor of potentially bad defense. The Devils skaters played an objectively bad game last night, yet the xG implies they didn't.

So long as people take those stats as some kind of gospel, this discussion will be incredibly frustrating.

I saw a bunch of 2-1's against.

Those goals by Mantha and Strome looked a little soft, but those are also bad situations to put the goal tender in.

 

[NJDevs26]

Bullshit. The Caps had 2.9 expected goals last night. The goalies gave up more than 3 goals below expected. Three!

Average goalies would have saved at least expected. Good goalies would save above expected.

Well two, one was an empty netter

 

[NJDevs26]

I saw a bunch of 2-1's against.

Those goals by Mantha and Strome looked a little soft, but those are also bad situations to put the goal tender in.

And Vitek did actually make a few of the bailout saves people demand average goalies make in our ‘great’ period

 

[Devs3cups]

And Vitek did actually make a few of the bailout saves people demand average goalies make in our ‘great’ period

I don’t think Vitek is the one getting blame here. Schmid had a very bad game, Vitek was average and made some good stops. I would’ve liked a save on that 2nd goal, but whatever. First one on Vitek was on the D.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Too many turnovers, but that game registers as a particularly bad game in your mind because nearly every dangerous chance went in.

I can't stand this retort, as if I'm a hockey moron who can't discern a decent game from a bad one just based on the goals scored. This team has won games so far this season where I've observed and made the same criticisms as this game that they lost. Even if our goalies bailed them out last night, it would not have changed my view of how horrific they played in their own end. Stop with this condescending BS.

 

[guitarguyvic]

If we gave up 3 clear cut breakaways like the Caps did last night I’m sure that that would fall into the “bad defence” category, but since we didn’t convert they don’t count. The Caps didn’t play a solid defensive game.

This kind of analysis is disingenuous isn't it? The Caps are objectively a less talented team than the Devils. Them giving up clear breakaways to a much more talented team is not the same as it happening in reverse.

Also, clear cut breakaways are not the only terrible breakdowns that exist. Overall the Caps played better in their own end than the Devils did. There's no excuse for that.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Too often on here, many want to single out one particular area and label that as the reason for a loss. There doesn't have to be an individual scapegoat.

-We continue to start games flat. We extended that to also coming out flat for the 3rd.
-The penalty kill and the decision making by our defenders, specifically Siegs and Marino who are expected to be better.
-The puck management, poor passing, poor support, poor breakouts. This is what causes lack of cohesion offensively and inevitable chaos in our own end. This, in particular, caused some of the odd man rushes to occur that ended up in our net.
-The relatively poor goaltending, specifically from Schmid.

There is work to be done. I'd rather it be now than later in the year. October is when you get these kinks worked out.