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Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II

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duhmetreE said:
I'm no expert but his CA isn't the anomaly as you've mentioned. His CF is .
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They're both anomalies, both are about equally bad.

Rel CF/60: -12.36
Rel CA/60: 12.31
RelT CF/60: -12.84
RelT CA/60: 10.2

CF is a sliiightly bigger problem but they're both issues and the reasons behind the numbers overlap a lot, boils down mostly to him being bad at moving the puck.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
They're both anomalies, both are about equally bad.

Rel CF/60: -12.36
Rel CA/60: 12.31
RelT CF/60: -12.84
RelT CA/60: 10.2

CF is a sliiightly bigger problem but they're both issues and the reasons behind the numbers overlap a lot, boils down mostly to him being bad at moving the puck.
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Once again, non-contextual, copy pasta circular logic.

I will leave you to your echo chamber sir/madam.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
Exactly, he's way too passive defending the blueline, that's one of his major flaws and it hurts him badly in the shot metrics.
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He has 2 main problems that hurts him, his lack of defending the blueline and his play in the corners, he gets pushed off the puck too much. I think he could have stepped up more on the example you showed. He gt a free entry, you give an NHL player that much space and you're looking for trouble.

Both problems are fixable through good coaching, conditioning and experience.
 
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Miamipuck said:
He has 2 main problems that hurts him, his lack of defending the blueline and his play in the corners, he gets pushed off the puck too much. I think he could have stepped up more on the example you showed. He gt a free entry, you give an NHL player that much space and you're looking for trouble.

Both problems are fixable through good coaching, conditioning and experience.
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This is true, but he’s got other issues that are just as big.

He’s horrendous at moving the puck out of danger when he has pressure in his face. He’s Staal like, and this is a facet of the game where someone like DeAngelo is light years ahead of him.

The gap control/ NZ defense is a huge issue with this team in general though. We’re still in AV mode too often.
 
Go Away Staal said:
This is true, but he’s got other issues that are just as big.

He’s horrendous at moving the puck out of danger when he has pressure in his face. He’s Staal like, and this is a facet of the game where someone like DeAngelo is light years ahead of him.

The gap control/ NZ defense is a huge issue with this team in general though. We’re still in AV mode too often.
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This is the biggest issue for everyone on the team. It's like a muscle memory thing. AV and his crappy defensive system is still in their heads and poor gap control is a huge part of it.

I left out the ramming the puck up the boards, which drives me crazy, it's basically giving the puck up. I think a lot of Pionk's problems are solvable but the analytics don't lie, at least in my eyes. The team gets hemmed in a little too much. Again, much of that is fixable to a certain extent.
 
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Miamipuck said:
This is the biggest issue for everyone on the team. It's like a muscle memory thing. AV and his crappy defensive system is still in their heads and poor gap control is a huge part of it.

I left out the ramming the puck up the boards, which drives me crazy, it's basically giving the puck up. I think a lot of Pionk's problems are solvable but the analytics don't lie, at least in my eyes. The team gets hemmed in a little too much. Again, much of that is fixable to a certain extent.
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The analytics line up with the eye test in Pionks case. He’s had a rough go of it with some flashes of brilliance. His partner sucks balls, but he’s been plenty bad himself independent of Staal.

When he does something good though, it usually looks really good (the sequence before the Zibanejad OT winner against Pittsburgh late last year, the goal the other night, etc.) There is a player there, I just hope they can pull it out of him.
 
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I have no problem at all at where Pionk is at this point in his time with the Rangers. He is still learning the game at an NHL level, hes not perfect and he is never going to be, not everyone is gonna be Doughty.
 
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I'll give my take again, it's not going to show Pionk in the best of light, but it may show him in a lesser evil light.

This season, Even Strength

Pionk has 138 mins with Staal, 92CF 161CA, a negative 69.

Pionk has 64 mins with Skjei, 66CF 80CA, a negative 14.

There is a pretty big difference between his ratio when he plays with Staal versus when he plays with Skjei. Even if that were extrapolated out to roughly the same minutes, it's basically a negative -28 when with Skjei versus a negative -69 with Staal.

It's still not good but there must be reasons for the difference based on partner.

(I am sure someone will bring up Staal without Pionk doing better in those metrics, and he does but Staal's next most common partners in minutes have been Smith and Shattenkirk, two players that usually put up good shot based metrics and have done so with Staal so far this season. Oddly enough those two, Smith and Shattenkirk as a pair have lesser good metrics together than they do when either is paired with Staal.)
 
Passive play and larger than normal gaps entering the defensive zone has been a Rangers thing since at least Torts.

My guess is Torts did it because he had faith in reliable back checkers and his system was, at least in part, designed to prevent odd man rushes at all costs.

I'm not sure if it was part of AVs system or just something he didn't see a problem with and didn't change.

I'd like to see the gap closed a bit but I would also like to see the sticks a bit more active towards the puck carrier, especially right as they cross the blue line. Make them shift some of their focus on staying on sides.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
Staal-Shattenkirk pairing has somehow been really good in their small sample, that should be a thing until it changes.
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I have no problem with thinking that as well, just trying to point out for whatever reason Staal and Pionk are awful at the metrics where as Pionk Skjei are just not good. Then Staal with either of the other two are good and it may be just because they are going to be good at them almost no matter what. Until Pionk gets to play with different partners for more than 10 or whatever minutes it's kind of difficult to use relative, or without or without cf% measurements with him as he has really only played with either Staal or Skjei so far this season and the others have played with different partners with at least some possible relevant ice time sample.
 
Off Sides said:
I have no problem with thinking that as well, just trying to point out for whatever reason Staal and Pionk are awful at the metrics where as Pionk Skjei are just not good. Then Staal with either of the other two are good and it may be just because they are going to be good at them almost no matter what. Until Pionk gets to play with different partners for more than 10 or whatever minutes it's kind of difficult to use relative measurements with him as he has really only played with either Staal or Skjei so far this season.
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Skjei-DeAngelo is working out very well, Pionk should be with Smith or Claesson if we reunite Staal and Shattenkirk like we should.
 
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All of this stuff is small sample and not particularly predictive going forward. Staal/Shattenkirk have played together for 25 minutes with a total of 70 events. One bad game and the numbers will completely flip.
 
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SA16 said:
All of this stuff is small sample and not particularly predictive going forward. Staal/Shattenkirk have played together for 25 minutes with a total of 70 events. One bad game and the numbers will completely flip.
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The phenomenon holds true if you extend the sample to include last season, which brings the total TOI up to 131 minutes and the events to 252. 52.38 CF%, +6.07 RelCF%, +6.40 RelSCF%.

Kevin Shattenkirk - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick
 
SA16 said:
All of this stuff is small sample and not particularly predictive going forward. Staal/Shattenkirk have played together for 25 minutes with a total of 70 events. One bad game and the numbers will completely flip.
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I agree there too, just going by the sample that is there.

My guess would be that neither Staal or Pionk are very good at these metric no matter what but playing them as a pair is showing more poorly than it otherwise would for Pionk given Staal has some minutes with others it may be skewing his without metrics higher and that would also be reflected in the relative stuff.
 
SA16 said:
All of this stuff is small sample and not particularly predictive going forward. Staal/Shattenkirk have played together for 25 minutes with a total of 70 events. One bad game and the numbers will completely flip.
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Might as well flip it, even if it is bad after a game because we're getting to the point where Staal-Pionk has enough time to show it doesn't work.

Also, DeAngelo should be getting the minutes Pionk is getting based on overall play and overall ability. DeAngelo is a supremely skilled player, and I'd argue his skill capability is higher than Shattenkirk.
 
JimmyG89 said:
Also, DeAngelo should be getting the minutes Pionk is getting based on overall play and overall ability. DeAngelo is a supremely skilled player, and I'd argue his skill capability is higher than Shattenkirk.
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While ADA's play has been much, much better, I am not yet sure that I would trust him against the opposing team's top players and being on the ice for most of the defensive draws. That is where Pionk plays. Now, that may be a produce of multiple things including the fact that there may just simply not be anyone better on this team right now, but that still is. Increasing ADA's time on the ice during defensive draws, would make his number look worse, IMO. Also spending more time against the opposition's top players may not fare that well. Could be wrong and he may become much better at it, but just what I am seeing now.
 
Blue Blooded said:
The phenomenon holds true if you extend the sample to include last season, which brings the total TOI up to 131 minutes and the events to 252. 52.38 CF%, +6.07 RelCF%, +6.40 RelSCF%.

Kevin Shattenkirk - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick
Click to expand...

Just to put that in a different context (even strength)

That is a +11 CA/CF differential over 131 minutes.

(I guess I just think when one uses percentages it make things look different than when they show the shot difference in CF vs CA even though they are the same thing, and for whatever reason (reason being per game it would equate to like 1 or 2 attempts per game difference and I think that makes it seem less significant than just showing %) and it's a pet peeve of mine because different people would put a different value on those one or two shot attempts per game difference given what the player/pair may be doing that would be captured in a different metric or a subjective measurement of some type)
 
True Blue said:
While ADA's play has been much, much better, I am not yet sure that I would trust him against the opposing team's top players and being on the ice for most of the defensive draws. That is where Pionk plays. Now, that may be a produce of multiple things including the fact that there may just simply not be anyone better on this team right now, but that still is. Increasing ADA's time on the ice during defensive draws, would make his number look worse, IMO. Also spending more time against the opposition's top players may not fare that well. Could be wrong and he may become much better at it, but just what I am seeing now.
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We're not going to find out until he starts getting those minutes. Pionk is over his head half the time, so I don't see the harm in trying it.
 
BobMarleyNYR said:
Captainkirk needs to either produce or ride pine. Next game should be his final shot before sitting a game or two.
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Ok, I'm game. Who is Captain Kirk?

Nevermind. I am slow. But, though not quite the extent with Staal, I think that Quinn will give him a rather long leash.
 
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