Player Discussion Neal Pionk: Part II

[True Blue]

We're not going to find out until he starts getting those minutes. Pionk is over his head half the time, so I don't see the harm in trying it.

ADA has had some rather adventurous moments in his own zone. I would rather he continue to build his confidence a bit more. Then begin to spoon feed him other settings to his environment and not thrust him into the fire.

 

[RGY]

Pionk for Nylander

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

ADA has had some rather adventurous moments in his own zone. I would rather he continue to build his confidence a bit more. Then begin to spoon feed him other settings to his environment and not thrust him into the fire.

Has he, sure but so have the rest of our D.

He's made less mistakes in his own end than Pionk has relative to his minutes played.

He's also been much, much, much better at dealing with pressure in his face. With Pionk, I'm surprised when he makes a good pass in these situations, with DeAngelo, I'm surprised when he doesn't.

He doesn't gap up particularly well either, but again he does this better than Pionk. He should also be getting Pionk's PP time (well him or Shatty.)

 

[mrmovies779]

Pionk for Nylander

And what else are we adding?

 

[True Blue]

He should also be getting Pionk's PP time (well him or Shatty.)

ADA is one discussion. Shattenkirk is another. He should be kept as far away from the opposing team's top players as possible and never be on the ice during a defensive draw.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

ADA is one discussion. Shattenkirk is another. He should be kept as far away from the opposing team's top players as possible and never be on the ice during a defensive draw.

Was talking about PP1 time.

Pionk shouldn't be on that unit. If you want to work him onto unit 2, fine, but he shouldn't be playing on the top unit, hes clearly the worst of the 3 guys at playing on the PP.

 

[True Blue]

Was talking about PP1 time.

Pionk shouldn't be on that unit. If you want to work him onto unit 2, fine, but he shouldn't be playing on the top unit, hes clearly the worst of the 3 guys at playing on the PP.

Ahh....thought it was just overall time. My bad.

 

[JimmyG89]

ADA has had some rather adventurous moments in his own zone. I would rather he continue to build his confidence a bit more. Then begin to spoon feed him other settings to his environment and not thrust him into the fire.

I don't think it's coincidental that they've been winning games since he got entered into the lineup for McQuaid. It's not the only thing, but having guys who can move the puck out of our zone cleanly playing the most minutes is huge in the current NHL and he is the best we have at it.

 

[offdacrossbar]

ADA's ability to deliver the mail can't be overlooked or under appreciated.

this defense isn't the most creative nor mobile at times.

ADA can usually make a strong crisp first pass to exit the zone or he certainly can carry the puck out of trouble.

that alone helps our zone exits and entries. when the numbers are crunched, that ability impacts games almost as much as scoring.

the idea that ADA is weak defensively is just incorrect. and defense is more than just defending. possession is the life blood of effective ice hockeying.

 

[Thirty One]

Pionk for Nylander

Nylander +++

 

[True Blue]

I don't think it's coincidental that they've been winning games since he got entered into the lineup for McQuaid. It's not the only thing, but having guys who can move the puck out of our zone cleanly playing the most minutes is huge in the current NHL and he is the best we have at it.

Yes, you need people who can move the puck. I absolutely agree with that. But solely being a good puck mover does not a solid defenseman make. Equating puck moving skills to good defense is a mistake, imo. ADA has not been the sole reason that they have a winning streak. You have no further to look at Henke's play to see why they are in the position that they are in. And ADA and the rest of the D has put him into a bad position fairly frequently.

I like ADA, but again feel like we are right back to PMD=instant greatness. Moving the puck well is great, moving it smartly is another thing. He has been MUCH better at it. But still has a ways to go. And defensing your net is quite a different thing entirely.

 

[True Blue]

the idea that ADA is weak defensively is just incorrect. and defense is more than just defending. possession is the life blood of effective ice hockeying.

There is much, much more to being a good defenseman than just being able to move the puck. Believe it or not, one still needs to actually defend. One of the many reasons, none of Shattenkirk's coaches wanted to have him on the ice during defensive draws.

 

[offdacrossbar]

the best defense is possessing the puck.

if you have it and they don't, you dont have to play much defense.

obviously D is more than possession and moving the puck but those 2 things turn D into O pretty quickly.

 

[JimmyG89]

Equating puck moving skills to good defense is a mistake, imo.

Actually, equating not allowing goals is a poor indicator. Puck moving ability is so crucial in this game that it's skyrocketed up the list of things defense needs to be good at. Puck skills. DeAngelo's zone exits are much cleaner than Pionk. Right now, gap control, puck moving, and skating ability are the top 3 things you need to play defense at the NHL. DeAngelo is better at all three than Pionk.

Pionk bleeds shot attempts against, with Staal or not. He should be put in better situations. He's not "responsible" and "dependable" enough to do it.

Last season, after the roster purge, there was little reason not to play Pionk huge minutes. Right now, you have two other RHD who are playing better than he is. He should get some sheltered minutes or possibly a game in the pressbox if we have enough healthy bodies.

 

[True Blue]

the best defense is possessing the puck.

But you do not have the puck when the opposition is rushing at you. So before you get to use puck moving skills, you actually need to defend the play first and foremost. Your theory works if you have possession of the puck 100% of the time. Until you wind up with the puck, you need to defend. Get the puck. Separate the opposition from the puck. Defend your net from people who are swarming and trying to score.

 

[True Blue]

Actually, equating not allowing goals is a poor indicator. Puck moving ability is so crucial in this game that it's skyrocketed up the list of things defense needs to be good at. Puck skills. DeAngelo's zone exits are much cleaner than Pionk. Right now, gap control, puck moving, and skating ability are the top 3 things you need to play defense at the NHL. DeAngelo is better at all three than Pionk.

I am not equating simply not allowing goals. I am actually not talking about goals at all. Nor do I disagree that being able to move the puck is crucial. But when talking about zone exits that is not starting in the beginning. Zone exits do not happen until you actually take possession of the puck. That is the start. DeAngelo is not going to get the puck away from the opposition with his superior puck moving ability. Nor is he going to separate the opposition from the puck using his skating ability.

Pionk bleeds shot attempts against, with Staal or not. He should be put in better situations. He's not "responsible" and "dependable" enough to do it.

If you were to swap Pionk's usage with DeAngelo's, you would see the shot attempts exchange. One is out there against the opposition's top players and on defensive draws and one is not. Those things do not show up in metrics, which is why solely relying on them is faulty and produces skewed results.

Last season, after the roster purge, there was little reason not to play Pionk huge minutes. Right now, you have two other RHD who are playing better than he is. He should get some sheltered minutes or possibly a game in the pressbox if we have enough healthy bodies.

You would have to discuss with AV why he saw necessary to use Pionk the way that he did last year. And for this year, I would be hesitant to play ADA in such a role. At least right now. Henke faces quite the odds as i tis.

 

[LORDE]

Yes, you need people who can move the puck. I absolutely agree with that. But solely being a good puck mover does not a solid defenseman make. Equating puck moving skills to good defense is a mistake, imo. ADA has not been the sole reason that they have a winning streak. You have no further to look at Henke's play to see why they are in the position that they are in. And ADA and the rest of the D has put him into a bad position fairly frequently.

I like ADA, but again feel like we are right back to PMD=instant greatness. Moving the puck well is great, moving it smartly is another thing. He has been MUCH better at it. But still has a ways to go. And defensing your net is quite a different thing entirely.

In order to move the puck, you need to get it back somehow... at least without a face-off at center ice.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Ok, I'm game. Who is Captain Kirk?

Nevermind. I am slow. But, though not quite the extent with Staal, I think that Quinn will give him a rather long leash.

Shattenkirk

 

[Harbour Dog]

I really have no idea how Pionk passes anyone's eye test in the defensive zone.

Terrible gap control aside, compare him to ADA when they each get position below the goal line in a pressure situation; it's night and day. Pionk invariably goes up the glass if he can, not getting it out or icing it an unhealthy percentage of time, while ADA makes passes that I never even seen were available to guys that are looking to start break outs.

Pionk has made me a believer in his upside (I don't think ADA has him significantly outpaced in that regard), but his defensive holes are glaring and need to be patched. If he is this same player in two years, then he will be overpaid by whatever team he is on.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I really have no idea how Pionk passes anyone's eye test in the defensive zone.

Terrible gap control aside, compare him to ADA when they each get position below the goal line in a pressure situation; it's night and day. Pionk invariably goes up the glass if he can, not getting it out or icing it an unhealthy percentage of time, while ADA makes passes that I never even seen were available to guys that are looking to start break outs.

Pionk has made me a believer in his upside (I don't think ADA has him significantly outpaced in that regard), but his defensive holes are glaring and need to be patched. If he is this same player in two years, then he will be overpaid by whatever team he is on.

Ok if the Twitter word of the month wasn’t “gap control”, would any of y’all be mentioning it?

 

[Harbour Dog]

Ok if the Twitter word of the month wasn’t “gap control”, would any of y’all be mentioning it?

Nope, you caught me. I don't even know what it means.

I've never even watched hackey before.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Nope, you caught me. I don't even know what it means.

I've never even watched hackey before.

So you started the meme?

 

[Edge]

With Pionk the conversation always seems to drift to what he isn’t — as if he’s a 5 year veteran.

With just about every other rookie, especially the ones who produce, we talk about what they can be with experience and refinement. We talk about the areas in need of improvement, but usually after we talk about their ceilings and strengths.

I’m really under no illusion that he will be a defensive bastion. But I think he’s certainly shown that his offensive contributions are worth the time and patience necessary for him to at least improve the areas of his game that aren’t his specialty.

 

[CommaSynapse]

With Pionk the conversation always seems to drift to what he isn’t — as if he’s a 5 year veteran.

I'm with you.

With just about every other rookie, especially the ones who produce, we talk about what they can be with experience and refinement. We talk about the areas in need of improvement, but usually after we talk about their ceilings and strengths.

I’m really under no illusion that he will be a defensive bastion. But I think he’s certainly shown that his offensive contributions are worth the time and patience necessary for him to at least improve the areas of his game that aren’t his specialty.

Pionk just turned 23 in the offseason. This is his first full pro season. I'm sure the game still moves fast for him at times. He came straight out of college into the NHL and kept up offensively.

If we know d-men take longer to develop, and we knew that this season was going to have some growing pains, why are we so up in arms?

He has work to do defensively. So does DeAngelo (who also just turned 23 a few weeks ago). It's very coachable. If they can read the plays to get to their offensive opportunities, then they should have enough hockey IQ to read defensive plays. I'm not worried about them.

Instead, I'm pretty psyched to have two promising d-men who can bring some offense at 23 years old.

 

[Inferno]

I need to see that second goal again but it sure felt like pionk had zero help there and was in a pick your poison position where he picked wrong