Player Discussion: Neal Pionk Part 2

[BoneDocUK]

Well, he is small and relatively slow -
I do see some of what you noted -
My concern (and point) is will we continue to see it or was LY an outlier that was timed around his next contact.

Sure, and I get the concern. But he's been arguably our best D for a few seasons now, pretty much since he joined the team and became a post-Trouba pleasant surprise, and his overall game and numbers have been pretty stable during that time. If he's getting good minutes on the 1st or 2nd pairing and PP time, I think he'll continue his high-end 2D trajectory.

 

[DRW204]

fwiw contract projection from EH

 

[scelaton]

What I'm saying is that I don't think he is worth the money that is being discussed in this thread -
He played well LY but against a backdrop of poor defenders, he looked better than he is.

My biggest concern is that he hasn't shown that style of game consistently. His history has not shown us that he is a physical dman or an aggressive one.

I'm concerned that he gave it his all LY - meaning everything he had to give and he did it knowing this year was payday year. Don't get me wrong - we want our players to leave it all out there. But, I don't think a player of his size (and speed) will be able to continue to play this style going forward. I don't believe his skill level alone warrants $6M+

I also have concerns that he will even try to play that type of game after he is signed. It's super risky for these smaller guys to play on the edge through their career - the odds are, it will catch up with him and I think he is smart enough to realize that. I feel he might revert back to a safer game after the contact is signed.

My opinion is just a hunch - I don't know what he will bring after the money is determined.
I hope I am wrong because the Jets are likely going to pay him - then again, Chevy may be struggling with the value here - I wouldn't be surprised

Not sure what your Myers comments means in relation to my post - I didn't suggest size is the key to choosing Dmen.
What I did say is that small / slow Dmen is a poor combination for a top 4 player.

Pionk has been miscast and underestimated for his entire career due to his size, and I respectfully suggest you are making the same mistake. Have a gander at this article--near the end, his old coach talks about his aggressive play, which he actually needed to temper. He has always played with an edge.

Pionk brings consistency, competitiveness to Jets in Stanley Cup Playoffs

Re the other bolded--you seem to be misconstruing his "skill level" based on his size, so I gave Myers as a counter-example. Pionk's ability to play against McDavid is the best-cited illustration that he is not "slow", but he has demonstrated high HIQ and an ability to play a complete 2-way game pretty consistently since coming here.

Jets' Pionk holding his own in head-to-head matchup with McDavid - Sportsnet.ca

I think we have an Enstrom-type defenseman on our hands and he will be paid commensurately, or leave. Enstrom was forever under-valued by many because of his size so I expect the same with Pionk.
Interestingly, the antidote to Enstrom's size challenges, IMO, was Dustin Byfuglien, so the Jets acquisition of Brenden Dillon may do the same thing. I expect no regression from him if he signs a LT contract--it would be entirely out of character.

 

[EpicGingy]

I'm not sure why some are saying Pionk has only had 1 good season when he was pretty good in 19/20 as well.

 

[DRW204]

My concern (and point) is will we continue to see it or was LY an outlier that was timed around his next contact.

agreed

made this point earlier.... i thought his first year with the jets he was a bit overrated and his time with NYR was basura. last season was the only year in his career he's performed at a strong top-4 level imo, and it was a shortened year too.....who knows if he could've kept that for 82 games + POs? Who knows if it was an outlier or peak year (look at Morrissey for instance pre and post contract signing)?

buuuuuuut, Pionk's career with the jets he's played with pretty bad dmen ie: Forbort, Kulikov, or Sbisa. Dillon will likely be a big upgrade for him, and post-Dillon he'll likely have one of Heinola/Stanley/Samberg alongside him. him playing at a high-level last year with Forbot is quite the accomplishment tbh.

 

[jetsfan91]

Gotta sign Pionk. He was our best defenseman last season. Somewhere long term around 5.5-6.5 please!!

 

[Bob E]

I cant see Pionk getting less than 6.5.

Same. Anything less and Chevy should jump at the deal.

 

[LowLefty]

Pionk has been miscast and underestimated for his entire career due top his size, and I respectfully suggest you are making the same mistake. Have a gander at this article--near the end, his old coach talks about his aggressive play, which he actually needed to temper. He has always played with an edge.

Pionk brings consistency, competitiveness to Jets in Stanley Cup Playoffs

Re the other bolded--you seem to be misconstruing his "skill level" based on his size, so I gave Myers as a counter-example. Pionk's ability to play against McDavid is the best cited that he is not "slow", but he has shown skill, high IQ and an ability to play a 2-way game pretty consistently since coming here.

Jets' Pionk holding his own in head-to-head matchup with McDavid - Sportsnet.ca

I think we have an Enstrom-type defenseman on our hands and he will be paid commensurately, or leave. Enstrom was forever under-valued by many because of his size so I expect the same with Pionk.
Interestingly, the antidote to Enstrom's size challenges, IMO, was Dustin Byfuglien, so the Jets acquisition of Brenden Dillon may do the same thing. I expect no regression from him if he signs a LT contract--it would be entirely out of character.

All your points are valid - and those that are chiming in are also making solid arguments.
I'm not calling him out as a bad dman - but I am nervous about the money and whether or not he provides the same effort going forward as he did last season.

I may be underestimating him and others may be over estimating him (IMO) - it's more a sense of caution with me and and I see a few warning signs in how it all nicely came together for him in his contract year. I thought his game was reckless at times and on the verge of being a little too far toward the ragged edge. I also think that type of game was forced to an extent in order for him to make the impression he would need to in order to garner the big bucks. And I'm not convinced its sustainable.

Again, your points are valid and I don't have a lot of solid footing in making a case - It's more of a cautious take that is based on a concern that we may not get the best of Pionk after the ink dries.
Call me paranoid - he (IMO) does not fit the profile of what I would want to consider our best (and most expensive) dman.

Regardless, I appreciate the debate and understand where you (and most) are coming from -

 

[Adam da bomb]

All your points are valid - and those that are chiming in are also making solid arguments.
I'm not calling him out as a bad dman - but I am nervous about the money and whether or not he provides the same effort going forward as he did last season.

I may be underestimating him and others may be over estimating him (IMO) - it's more a sense of caution with me and and I see a few warning signs in how it all nicely came together for him in his contract year. I thought his game was reckless at times and on the verge of being a little too far toward the ragged edge. I also think that type of game was forced to an extent in order for him to make the impression he would need to in order to garner the big bucks. And I'm not convinced its sustainable.

Again, your points are valid and I don't have a lot of solid footing in making a case - It's more of a cautious take that is based on a concern that we may not get the best of Pionk after the ink dries.
Call me paranoid - he (IMO) does not fit the profile of what I would want to consider our best (and most expensive) dman.

Regardless, I appreciate the debate and understand where you (and most) are coming from -

But still far under what other players are getting for being their teams best.

 

[bumblebeeman]

The big question to me is what does Pionk want. If he wants to sacrifice some cap hit for full term that could be ok, but maybe he prefers a shorter 4-5 year deal so he can hit UFA at 30-31 and get one more big contract.

 

[Buffdog]

Maybe pionk was our best defenceman last year, but is that really saying that much lol?

I'd have probably been our 3rd best

 

[WolfHouse]

Out of any defenceman in our lineup - our best asset and most expandable player is Morrissey. Heinola could step in for him quite easily... not sure if its in the cards but I sure would be shopping him... especially now that his contract is 'reasonable'.

Dillon-Pionk
Heinola-Schmidt
Stanley-Pionk
Samberg

If that means we keep Copp, sign Pionk long-term and add another bottom six... I'd absolutely do it.

 

[scelaton]

Out of any defenceman in our lineup - our best asset and most expandable player is Morrissey. Heinola could step in for him quite easily... not sure if its in the cards but I sure would be shopping him... especially now that his contract is 'reasonable'.

Dillon-Pionk
Heinola-Schmidt
Stanley-Pionk
Samberg

If that means we keep Copp, sign Pionk long-term and add another bottom six... I'd absolutely do it.

Pionk playing big minutes in your lineup...you must really like him

 

[Jet]

Very interesting points. Jets could play out this season and see where Pionk is at. Hell we could let him work his way to UFA and leave for the pay day as we’ll have our prospects coming in and he might have exhausted his prime in the next two seasons.

You're saying that a guy entering his 4th full NHL season will have exhausted his prime within 2 years at the age of 28?

I think that's extremely unlikely.

Either we sign him for one year to figure out our cap, or we give him 6 years. Id bet Chevy figures out how to get the latter done.

 

[Whileee]

You're saying that a guy entering his 4th full NHL season will have exhausted his prime within 2 years at the age of 28?

I think that's extremely unlikely.

Either we sign him for one year to figure out our cap, or we give him 6 years. Id bet Chevy figures out how to get the latter done.

Agree. I think it's not that problematic to find a long-term deal that would suit the Jets and Pionk, but I'd bet that Chevy is trying to keep Copp, too (at least for a couple more seasons). It's fitting both Pionk and Copp under the salary cap this season (and next) that is the main challenge.

 

[DRW204]

Maybe pionk was our best defenceman last year, but is that really saying that much lol?

I'd have probably been our 3rd best

last year he and DeMelo were our best. In league wide analytics /stats/onice measures they both were both rated high

 

[WolfHouse]

Pionk playing big minutes in your lineup...you must really like him

He is very good but so is the rest of that lineup

I think we have a good roster but not sure where secondary scoring is coming from

 

[Gabe Kupari]

last year he and DeMelo were our best. In league wide analytics /stats/onice measures they both were both rated high

What's it matter when in a normal season we don't play any of those teams very often. Ppl need to stop with the last year they were stuff cuz last year we were in a division with teams we rarely to never play.

 

[Adam da bomb]

What's it matter when in a normal season we don't play any of those teams very often. Ppl need to stop with the last year they were stuff cuz last year we were in a division with teams we rarely to never play.

So what should we judge them on? The year before? That’s hard to make that case in arb. But even if we do that and extend to next year so factor 2 years, Pionk has still been our best d. Too small a sample of Pionk, and Demelo, quite frankly to throw out last year out completely.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

I just think ppl need to stop looking at last season like it's a sign of things to come. My biggest problem with a guy like copp is career year vs same teams. How wouldn't Chevy bring that up in arbitration. It's relevant.

Pionk? Don't think he goes to arbitration so think it's pointless. They obviously don't see him as a number 1 rhd hence getting nate Schmidt. Pionk is a good number 2 but none of our D last year were really that great. I mean yes our team d and systems play a role but pionk is a number 2 rhd and will likely get 6 6.5 long term.

 

[WolfHouse]

If I’m Pionk I take a bridge and then gets $9 mill in UFA after showing what he can do with a real D partner

 

[Jets 31]

I just think ppl need to stop looking at last season like it's a sign of things to come. My biggest problem with a guy like copp is career year vs same teams. How wouldn't Chevy bring that up in arbitration. It's relevant.

Pionk? Don't think he goes to arbitration so think it's pointless. They obviously don't see him as a number 1 rhd hence getting nate Schmidt. Pionk is a good number 2 but none of our D last year were really that great. I mean yes our team d and systems play a role but pionk is a number 2 rhd and will likely get 6 6.5 long term.

If Pionk was in Edmonton he would get 8x8 .

 

[ocdaddy]

If I’m Pionk I take a bridge and then gets $9 mill in UFA after showing what he can do with a real D partner

9M? Are you related to Neil?

 

[BigZ65]

You're saying that a guy entering his 4th full NHL season will have exhausted his prime within 2 years at the age of 28?

I think that's extremely unlikely.

Either we sign him for one year to figure out our cap, or we give him 6 years. Id bet Chevy figures out how to get the latter done.

Would I love Darnell Nurse on my team? Yes. Would I love paying Darnell Nurse more than 10% of my cap space? No.

Everyone has a value is all I’m saying. The nice thing is we have Pionk for 2 seasons either way and we go from there.

There was a time when we were desperate to re-sign Ladd and Byfuglien and neither of them made it through that contract.

 

[DRW204]

I just think ppl need to stop looking at last season like it's a sign of things to come. My biggest problem with a guy like copp is career year vs same teams. How wouldn't Chevy bring that up in arbitration. It's relevant.

Pionk? Don't think he goes to arbitration so think it's pointless. They obviously don't see him as a number 1 rhd hence getting nate Schmidt. Pionk is a good number 2 but none of our D last year were really that great. I mean yes our team d and systems play a role but pionk is a number 2 rhd and will likely get 6 6.5 long term.

What's it matter when in a normal season we don't play any of those teams very often. Ppl need to stop with the last year they were stuff cuz last year we were in a division with teams we rarely to never play.

ive said a few time last year was a strange year with the shortened schedule, and who knows if he can keep it up for 82. last year was also his only season he performed like a top-4 D at all facets of the game imo. i didn't like his game in year 1 as a jet, but he got a lot of points being point-guy on pp1.