NCAA to allow CHL players to play hockey?

[joelef]

Washington, Oregon, USC, and UCLA don't have current interest in adding D1 hockey. They don't have the budget nor the donor to get it started. They're too invested in football and basketball.

We need to get Iowa and Illinois (or other universities in those states) to start D1 programs, before we worry about the former Pac 12 schools to start it. UNLV will likely elevate to D1 from their current club status over the next decade, but their problem is like Arizona State's old problem: the need for a suitable D1 arena.

With all the arenas in Las Vegas it’s surprising that there not using any of those.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

With all the arenas in Las Vegas it’s surprising that there not using any of those.

Thomas & Mack is likely not an option suitable, either because it's got likely the same issues that Phoenix/Utah have w/ their current arenas.... then there's Mandalay Bay,..... then the dates available that aren't already spoken for.... such as the NBA Cup finals as an example

 

[joelef]

Thomas & Mack is likely not an option suitable, either because it's got likely the same issues that Phoenix/Utah have w/ their current arenas.... then there's Mandalay Bay,..... then the dates available that aren't already spoken for.... such as the NBA Cup finals as an example

What about orleans?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

What about orleans?

that pretty much went away when the Wranglers did when the discussion intensified around the Knights and T-Mobile Arena in 2016.... Orleans basically terminated the team lease after 2014.... the franchise went to inactive status, then terminated after 2015/16..... doubtful w/ the advent of T-Mobile there's not a need for a 2nd hockey arena in Vegas

 

[viper0220]

How would this work with the draft? A player playing in CHL goes to NCAA and gets drafted, he can say no to the team that drafted him and go back to the NCAA.

Is there anything in the CBA about this? If not, there should be.

 

[GKJ]

How would this work with the draft? A player playing in CHL goes to NCAA and gets drafted, he can say no to the team that drafted him and go back to the NCAA.

Is there anything in the CBA about this? If not, there should be.

That would have to be addressed, I don’t think anyone knows how this would theoretically work. That’s why the NHL wants a seat at the table.

 

[DaveG]

How would this work with the draft? A player playing in CHL goes to NCAA and gets drafted, he can say no to the team that drafted him and go back to the NCAA.

Is there anything in the CBA about this? If not, there should be.

I would think it would still be the same as it is now in that situation but it's definitely something that the league would want to nail down before there's a reverse Mike Van Ryn.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

Basically, this only affects a few players on each roster each year.. a couple 18 year olds, some 19-20 year olds out of the CHL who may be low draft picks, or journeyman 3-4 year CHL players who are likely good top level players, but may be stuck in the echl/low AHL or top players in U sport.

Those would be players that go to NCAA at 19/20 after their draft year to get 3-4 more years of top level/still NHL visible.

Basically, USHL players will go WHL, USHL probably combines a few teams with WHL/OHL. BCHL goes back to Hockey Canada like it was (and should be).

So junior A is good again.
CHL gets better (some top American players/BCHL players)
NCAA gets way deeper. The mid to low teams, (non ND, BC, BU, Denver etc.) are now way more competitive, with good players coming off 3-4 years of 82 CHL games.

USport loses 2-4 top end players on each team.

an interesting observation, I've seen a number of more 16-17 year olds in junior A in western Canada, which traditionally didn't happen as MAAA is the strongest out of anywhere.

So not a huge deal, makes everyone better IMO.

 

[mouser]

How would this work with the draft? A player playing in CHL goes to NCAA and gets drafted, he can say no to the team that drafted him and go back to the NCAA.

Is there anything in the CBA about this? If not, there should be.

The NHL CBA already covers all the possible draft rights scenarios of players moving from juniors to the NCAA (College) or vice versa.

If you want to propose a hypothetical example I’ll do my best to answer how it should work.

 

[viper0220]

The NHL CBA already covers all the possible draft rights scenarios of players moving from juniors to the NCAA (College) or vice versa.

If you want to propose a hypothetical example I’ll do my best to answer how it should work.

The issue I have is players not signing with the team that drafted them. Like Adam Fox.

 

[mouser]

The issue I have is players not signing with the team that drafted them. Like Adam Fox.

Allowing CHL players to join the NCAA wouldn't change that--CHL players are also free to choose not to sign with the team that drafted them.

The CBA rules are pretty straight forward. If a CHL player drafted at age 18 or 19 becomes a college player prior to the second June 1st following their draft then their draft rights change to college draft rights with the drafting team typically having the player rights for four years.

 

[Voight]

I would think it would still be the same as it is now in that situation but it's definitely something that the league would want to mail down before there's a reverse Mike Van Ryn.

Charlie Coyle being another example, played a full season in D1, then quit partway through his second year to play in the Q.

 

[DaveG]

Charlie Coyle being another example, played a full season in D1, then quit partway through his second year to play in the Q.

I think that one was more a case of Coyle going full Cardale Jones since he ended up signing with Minnesota that off-season. There were some, shall we say, rumors about his study habits at the time rather than him simply trying to force his way to UFA like Van Ryn did.

 

[Voight]

I think that one was more a case of Coyle going full Cardale Jones since he ended up signing with Minnesota that off-season. There were some, shall we say, rumors about his study habits at the time rather than him simply trying to force his way to UFA like Van Ryn did.

Yea I figured he got the "college experience" then realized he was leaving after his sophomore year anyways, so why have to deal with the student part of the equation when he can play in the Q and just focus on hockey.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

If the NCAA allows Adam Benak (already played 18 Czech league games) in with no restrictions, they're definitely losing this lawsuit.

 

[Saskatoon]

This is complicated.

This could be a driver in the long talked about draft age change to 19.

I can see teams being allowed to do sliding Cntracts with ncaa players. Or does it change to how baseball operates wh er e UF thry go ncas thrn thry re-enter draft 4 yr post HS like nfl draft rules?

CHL will get better players who might not think they will he pro but could lead to an NCAA scholarship

CHL could still have these players similar to the USHL players drafted who wait a year for ncaa

The canadian U18 leagues will lose players who were ncas bound. Similarly the USS U18 league's also could be hurt with talent loss

I dont see mcdavids go from CHL to ncaa. They go straight to NHL. I do see some of the top 50 drafted go ncas route.

As ncaa schools start to expand in hockey programs will affect CHL too with no changes.

With washington, oregon, USC, and UCLA go big 10, could they eventually create D1 hockey programs? Same true with mirr teams in the mountain west and big 12 conferences. In 10 years there are 25+ new D1 hockey schools can change things too

Genuine question - how do they raise the draft age without cancelling the draft for a year?

 

[mouser]

Genuine question - how do they raise the draft age without cancelling the draft for a year?

Stage it over two or more years. E.g. year one is age 18+4 months, year two 18+8 months, year three is age 19.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Genuine question - how do they raise the draft age without cancelling the draft for a year?

I wondered how the NBA did it when they brought in the 19 year old age limit - but some quick googling suggests that while the NBA would sometimes draft 18 year olds, many /most draft picks were still coming from the college ranks so I guess it wasn't as substantial a change.

You could do the 18+4/8mo interim drafts, but it's so contrary to how all of hockey development works - which is by birth year.

Or you just have one draft where you only draft 19 year olds who would have already been eligible the year before - so a very underwhelming draft.

 

[MeHateHe]

Just because we're talking about the prospect of a 19-year-old draft again, here's a brief (though 7-year-old) explanation of how we got to the 18-year-old draft and what impediments there are to changing it to 19.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/will-nhl-raise-the-draft-age-to-19

 

[Yukon Joe]

Just because we're talking about the prospect of a 19-year-old draft again, here's a brief (though 7-year-old) explanation of how we got to the 18-year-old draft and what impediments there are to changing it to 19.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/will-nhl-raise-the-draft-age-to-19

There's really only one impediment - it would have to be part of a CBA (which of course is mentioned in the article).

So the question is - would the NHLPA go along with it? Traditionally the NHLPA (and all players unions) while they technically are representing future members, in practice there interests are with those players currently in the league. That's why the NHLPA went along with a rookie salary cap, or why they insisted on being paid in full during the pandemic despite the fact it would supress the salary cap in future years. So I don't imagine the PA caring much about the rights of 18 year old future-members (the vast majority of whom wouldn't make the league at 18 anyways).

But would a 19yo draft effect free agency? Normally you hit free agency when you hit 27 or 7 years in the league. It doesn't effect most players, but any 18 year old who makes the NHL can become a UFA by age 25. Would the NHLPA insist on reducing that to 6 years to hit UFA if you can only draft 19 year olds? That would be a more far-reaching change.

 

[Hockey Know it all]

I've seen even the southern schools have hockey teams, like Clemson, Texas. No clue if they would be considered the equivalent of Division II when compared to football given that they are not of the quality of Michigan, BU, BC, UND, etc. So, unless there is a great explosion of hockey programs, only so many scholarships to go around.

But, I do think USports in Canada would take a hit in terms of the quality of player for sure.

Clemson and Texas for example are not Div 1 NCAA. they are ACHA, which is a lesser league compared to NCAA

 

[Bubbles]

This is the million-dollar question. Currently, CHL players sign standard agreements that make them beholden to their respective club teams until the age of 20. As such, CHL players would be prevented from jumping into the NCAA as 18-year-old freshman. No one expects this current contract to withstand a legal challenge and the CHL will be forced to amend their standard contract agreement to allow for freedom of movement between the CHL and the NCAA.

The reality, however, is that the vast majority of players entering the NCAA are well over the age of 18 and the granting of eligibility to CHL players will not change this. The real question is what are the top end players going to do? Will they play in the CHL until their 18th year and then jump to the NCAA? Some players, particularly American born players will do exactly that but I'm not so sure about the top end Canadian ones that are currently on the NCAA track.

"The NCAA is actively considering removing all restrictions for CHL players to play in the NCAA after their CHL careers are done," Friedman said on Hockey Night in Canada's Saturday Headlines segment.

So this is what they are discussing now. One thing at a time. If this provision is allowed, than it only concerns CHLers that have fulfilled their CHL contract. These type of players aren't really NHL prospects anyways. We're talking about 20 year old CHLers that weren't drafted.

No one has been discussing the possibility of say, and 18 year old CHL guy leaving for the NCAA. I agree with that provision may be challenged in a future lawsuit, but it's not the issue at hand.

Say an NHL team drafts a guy from an 18 year old guy from the CHL, but doesn't think the CHL is good enough to develop him. Do they really think a year in college would be too different than a 19 year old year in the CHL? By age 20 they have the kid in the AHL and under their development umbrella.

I think a lot of people have been jumping the gun on this discussion. As it stands now, this really only concerns 20+ CHLers that want to continue hockey in the NCAA. The minute the conversation turns to 18/19 CHLers wanting to jump to college, than that's a whole another issue altogether.

BTW, this article here has the best, informed take on the whole thing.



NCAA And Major Junior Hockey Players Eligibility - An Important Update

 

[Voight]

Changing the draft age to 19 is ridiculous. There is zero need for that.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Changing the draft age to 19 is ridiculous. There is zero need for that.

The argument goes something like this:

-a very very tiny amount of draft picks make it into the NHL at 18. Even when an 18yo is good enough to make the league, it's hard to say they make that much of an impact.

-it's incredibly hard to project how some 17-18yo kid is going to turn out as a pro. Every year older improves that scouting ability.

-the NHL draft is essential for how NHL teams can develop their talent pool.

Therefore, moving the draft age to 19 would better enable NHL teams to scout their draft picks, and the harm would be to an incredibly small number of players each year.

Remember - NBA has 1 19 year old minimum, and NFL (while complicated) is drafting men in their 20s.

 

[Yukon Joe]

You can also throw in:

-18 year olds are not fully grown or developed, and it's potentially a safety issue for them to play against fully grown men. Neither Connor Bedard nor Connor McDavid were able to play their full rookie seasons due to injury as 18 year olds.

Now I'm just putting forward the argument. I don't really have strong feelings one way or another. NHL has drafted 18 year olds for a very long time now, so obviously it's not that terrible a system. But the poster said "there is zero need for that" - and I think there's an argument that can be made for it.