NCAA to allow CHL players to play hockey?

[joelef]

Is an age limit even legal?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Is an age limit even legal?

Um, yes?

I mean the NHL has had an age limit for decades now - 18. An NHL team can not draft or sign a 17 year old.

There are potentially anti-trust concerns in the US - but those are addressed if the age limit has been collectively bargained. Which is why every single pro sports league that has a draft also has an age limit.

The most "recent" challenge to pro age limits was a fellow named Maurice Clarett. He played football for Ohio State, helping win the national championship as a freshman. Clarett however was then suspended for one year. Rather than wait out the suspension he decided to try and play in the NHL. He sued to get the NFL's limit that you have to be three years post highschool declared invalid. He was initially successful, but that was overturned on appeal, and attempts to appeal further were denied.

 

[joelef]

Don’t understand that soccer players can be pro at 16 and 17 and snowboarders become pros at 13 but can’t 18 year old legal adults play on leaguers like the nhl.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Don’t understand that soccer players can be pro at 16 and 17 and snowboarders become pros at 13 but can’t 18 year old legal adults play on leaguers like the nhl.

Well look I know nothing about professional snowboarding so let's leave that to the side (besides individual sports just work differently anyways).

The basic answer is that is how soccer chooses to organize itself.

There's no draft in soccer. There's no attempt at trying to maintain "competitive balance" in soccer. They see no problem with the rich being rich and the poor being poor. As such soccer teams will try to identify talent very early on and recruit those players to then come up through their own youth system.

NHL/NBA/NFL do try to maintain competitive balance. As such all players are recruited through a draft. This also has the advantage for the leagues that some other organization (either universities, or junior hockey) they takes care of the cost of developing young players.

So the NHL could, if it wanted to, draft 16 year olds. All it would take is a change to the CBA. But think about what that would entail - now you're having to send NHL scouts out to watch bantam and midget games all over the place. What exactly would that do to the CHL if junior-age kids are now all the property of NHL clubs?

 

[edog37]

Changing the draft age to 19 is ridiculous. There is zero need for that.

Why? Most kids spend additional time in junior/NCAA after being drafted anyway. I say raise it to 21.

 

[PCSPounder]

The basic answer is that is how soccer chooses to organize itself.

Replace “soccer” with “the world except for North America and pointyball” and you’ll be getting somewhere. Though 17 years olds in Rugby have to be assessed as being capable to play with adults. American football requires you get all drugged ERRRRRRR gain size before playing with the big boys.

Hockey can be a bit like that, but a Gretzky could play WHA back in the day FWIW.

But the driving principle in most of the world is that you get to choose who to play for, if they’ll have you. There are a couple exceptions (a draft of high schoolers in Japanese baseball, for instance). But put it this way… only the USA and South Korea have a college development system for most sports.

 

[joelef]

Why? Most kids spend additional time in junior/NCAA after being drafted anyway. I say raise it to 21.

They should abolish age limits

 

[Yukon Joe]

Replace “soccer” with “the world except for North America and pointyball” and you’ll be getting somewhere. Though 17 years olds in Rugby have to be assessed as being capable to play with adults. American football requires you get all drugged ERRRRRRR gain size before playing with the big boys.

Hockey can be a bit like that, but a Gretzky could play WHA back in the day FWIW.

But the driving principle in most of the world is that you get to choose who to play for, if they’ll have you. There are a couple exceptions (a draft of high schoolers in Japanese baseball, for instance). But put it this way… only the USA and South Korea have a college development system for most sports.

While I'll agree that the way NAm sports organize themselves is fairly unique, I'm going to respectfully disagree with the notion that "you get to choose who to play for, if they'll have you" is how the rest of the world operates. Soccer is what I know best, but even then far from perfectly, so let's stay there.

European soccer clubs sign up promising kids young. VERY young. Like grade-schoolers. So yes, at that point you (or at least your parents) get to choose what club to sign with. But then at that point the club owns your rights. They can and do sell promising players to other clubs - and the player has no choice in the matter. Kids can even be transferred to entirely different countries with no say in the matter.

If you get drafted into the NHL you don't get to chose what city you play in, but at least you know you'll be in Canada or the US.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They should abolish age limits

Why?

What benefit does anyone get from the idea of a 16 year old playing in the NHL? Does it benefit the player? There's hardly anyone out there that could play in the NHL at 16. Maybe Bedard or McDavid could, but even then... Bedard's 16 year old year he put up 100 points in 62 games. Obviously that's really good - but against junior players, and he's not going to put up those numbers in the NHL. It's not going to be to his benefit to play in the NL at 16 on the third line, instead of dominating in junior (which is what he did the next year - 143 points in 57 games).

There's also the issue of injuries. A 16 year old still has a lot of growing to do. Getting crunched into the boards by a 30 year old grown man repeatedly has a high likelihood of injury.

And how much does it benefit teams? It makes scouting much more difficult - imagine scouting 15 year olds and trying to project what they'll be like with 5-10 years of development.

And of course it will likely hurt CHL teams as you're taking their top stars away from them.

 

[GKJ]

The middle ground would be an idea that’s been floated, which is you can only draft an 18-year old in the first round.

 

[joelef]

Why?

What benefit does anyone get from the idea of a 16 year old playing in the NHL? Does it benefit the player? There's hardly anyone out there that could play in the NHL at 16. Maybe Bedard or McDavid could, but even then... Bedard's 16 year old year he put up 100 points in 62 games. Obviously that's really good - but against junior players, and he's not going to put up those numbers in the NHL. It's not going to be to his benefit to play in the NL at 16 on the third line, instead of dominating in junior (which is what he did the next year - 143 points in 57 games).

There's also the issue of injuries. A 16 year old still has a lot of growing to do. Getting crunched into the boards by a 30 year old grown man repeatedly has a high likelihood of injury.

And how much does it benefit teams? It makes scouting much more difficult - imagine scouting 15 year olds and trying to project what they'll be like with 5-10 years of development.

And of course it will likely hurt CHL teams as you're taking their top stars away from them.

There won’t be a mass influx of course and maybe you wouldn’t have any 16 year olds Dosent mean you need an age limit.

 

[Yukon Joe]

There won’t be a mass influx of course and maybe you wouldn’t have any 16 year olds Dosent mean you need an age limit.

But why?

Seriously - why should the NHL get rid of an age limit? What's the argument in favour of it?

 

[mouser]

The middle ground would be an idea that’s been floated, which is you can only draft an 18-year old in the first round.

There are pros and cons to the idea. I think the biggest con from the NHL’s POV is doing this would strongly dilute the benefits of moving to a 19 year old age limit. The most important and valuable draft picks to hit right are the 1st round picks, especially the top 15-20 picks.

 

[GKJ]

There are pros and cons to the idea. I think the biggest con from the NHL’s POV is doing this would strongly dilute the benefits of moving to a 19 year old age limit. The most important and valuable draft picks to hit right are the 1st round picks, especially the top 15-20 picks.

I don’t think any solution to this is without pitfalls, and I don’t particularly like this one, but it’s the scouts who are saying their job is too hard because the players are too young. Kind of the same in every sport though.

 

[jetsmooseice]

The physical contact and risk of serious injury is too great in hockey to allow the NHL to entertain the thought of having 16 and 17 year olds play.

Soccer is a different world, contact is fairly incidental. You might get bumped or knocked down, but no one is going to absolutely smoke you the way you'd get smoked in hockey if you carry the puck up the middle of the ice with your head down for a moment.

Maybe we see a player once every generation who could play in the NHL at 16, but being deprived of that is a small price to pay for the safety and proper development of all the other players who aren't.

 

[edog37]

They should abolish age limits

Nope. Do you really want a 16 year old going up against a 28 year old?

 

[edog37]

Well look I know nothing about professional snowboarding so let's leave that to the side (besides individual sports just work differently anyways).

The basic answer is that is how soccer chooses to organize itself.

There's no draft in soccer. There's no attempt at trying to maintain "competitive balance" in soccer. They see no problem with the rich being rich and the poor being poor. As such soccer teams will try to identify talent very early on and recruit those players to then come up through their own youth system.

NHL/NBA/NFL do try to maintain competitive balance. As such all players are recruited through a draft. This also has the advantage for the leagues that some other organization (either universities, or junior hockey) they takes care of the cost of developing young players.

So the NHL could, if it wanted to, draft 16 year olds. All it would take is a change to the CBA. But think about what that would entail - now you're having to send NHL scouts out to watch bantam and midget games all over the place. What exactly would that do to the CHL if junior-age kids are now all the property of NHL clubs?

the NHL can’t draft 16 year olds regardless of the CBA. A 16 year old can’t sign a legal contract. Not to mention the other labor laws regarding minor employment.

 

[PCSPounder]

While I'll agree that the way NAm sports organize themselves is fairly unique, I'm going to respectfully disagree with the notion that "you get to choose who to play for, if they'll have you" is how the rest of the world operates. Soccer is what I know best, but even then far from perfectly, so let's stay there.

European soccer clubs sign up promising kids young. VERY young. Like grade-schoolers. So yes, at that point you (or at least your parents) get to choose what club to sign with. But then at that point the club owns your rights. They can and do sell promising players to other clubs - and the player has no choice in the matter. Kids can even be transferred to entirely different countries with no say in the matter.

If you get drafted into the NHL you don't get to chose what city you play in, but at least you know you'll be in Canada or the US.

If you’re a grade schooler (and not every country does that), you’re usually getting paid with school and maybe a nominal amount. Ajax is a club that sponsors full little kid programs. That doesn’t happen in England. There are peculiar differences from country to country.

The “no say” thing- not since the Bosman ruling (European equivalent of Messersmith in baseball). The player usually has a say, other than to know that he may be getting transferred out because he’s not getting time with the selling club, the major incentive is playing time. Also because of Bosman, a kid gets out “on a free” after he’s out of contract. The main reason clubs don’t solely go shopping exclusively for free transfers is that your fans will punish you for not trying to improve. The oddity is that there are often third party advisers who get involved in these transactions and get a little cut.

 

[Yukon Joe]

the NHL can’t draft 16 year olds regardless of the CBA. A 16 year old can’t sign a legal contract. Not to mention the other labor laws regarding minor employment.

How do you think the CHL works then? Players are drafted, and sign contracts with the team.

A court is much more likely to void a contract signed by a minor if they feel it's unfair, but minors can definitely sign contracts.

 

[Bonk]

Is it possible to grant exceptional status like the CHL does for the once-in-a-generation player who might be good enough to play in the NHL at 16 or 17?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Is it possible to grant exceptional status like the CHL does for the once-in-a-generation player who might be good enough to play in the NHL at 16 or 17?

Again - the NHL could sign a CBA with an "exceptional status" type provision if both they and the NHLPA wanted to.

But under the current CBA - no.

 

[edog37]

How do you think the CHL works then? Players are drafted, and sign contracts with the team.

A court is much more likely to void a contract signed by a minor if they feel it's unfair, but minors can definitely sign contracts.

How do you think US labor law works, where the NHL is headquartered & largely operates?

People under 18 can’t legally sign contracts without parental concurrence. A player contract signed only by a 16 year old is unenforceable in the US.

And it would be beyond stupid & reckless to allow anyone that age to play against men significantly older.

There’s a reason why high schoolers don’t play in the NFL.

 

[Yukon Joe]

How do you think US labor law works, where the NHL is headquartered & largely operates?

People under 18 can’t legally sign contracts without parental concurrence. A player contract signed only by a 16 year old is unenforceable in the US.

And it would be beyond stupid & reckless to allow anyone that age to play against men significantly older.

There’s a reason why high schoolers don’t play in the NFL.

So I'm a lawyer, but not a labour lawyer, and not licensed to practice law in any US state.

Googling suggests it is much more nuanced about whether a contract with someone under the age of 18 is enforceable or not, but you can do your own research on this point.

There's two separate questions here: 1. Is it a good idea for pro leagues to sign and draft people under the age of 18? and 2. Is it legally possible for pro leagues to sign and draft people under the age of 18?

On question 1, it sounds like you and I are in agreement. I think it would be a terrible idea for pro leagues to draft minors. The risk of a 16 year old going up against grown men in physically demanding sports sound terribly risky.

One question 2 - there is a reason why high schoolers can't play in the NFL. That reason is because the NFL CBA prohibits it. In order to play you have to be 3 years removed from high school. You'll notice though that each of the leagues have different rules - NBA drafts 19 year olds, NHL drafts 18 year olds, and MLB - well looks like there's no minimum, you just have to have graduated high school. As such a few 17 year olds have been drafted.

And as I pointed out, the CHL (which has US franchises) participates in drafts as well of 15-16 year olds. Doesn't seem to be any problem with that system.

So to summarize - the NHL (or any other league) drafting 16 year olds is probably fine, legally speaking as long as it is part of the CBA. It would however be a really dumb idea.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

If the NCAA allows Adam Benak (already played 18 Czech league games) in with no restrictions, they're definitely losing this lawsuit.

The NCAA has had a couple players who played in the OHL/QMJHL in the last couple years like 10-15 games.

it's a pretty decent mystery how some seem to get through the clearing house.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

The NCAA has had a couple players who played in the OHL/QMJHL in the last couple years like 10-15 games.

it's a pretty decent mystery how some seem to get through the clearing house.

Swankler was a case of the NCAA Clearinghouse just not doing a single quick Google Search to find Swankler's history on Elite Prospects or HockeyDB. Pretty dumb