Nationwide Arena/CBJ Finances Discussion II

[JacketsDavid]

Can't say that I've heard a lot about moving Carolina lately, Columbus and Phoenix seem to be on everyone's list as the two teams that should head for Canada. Never mind the fact that despite finishing dead last, we averaged over 14500 last year, a figure that the Islanders haven't seen in 10 years. The Isles have been at the bottom in the league for a decade yet they are never mentioned as being a franchise that should be moved.

The reason Phoenix and Columbus are often cited is the (lack of) profitability of both franchises. 22 of 30 NHL teams lost money last season, and of those losses 30% of the losses came from 2 franchises - Phoenix and Columbus.
Bottom line is the CBJ may have average 14500 in attendance but they must be heavily discounting tickets ($10 holiday tickets they sell to STH, other deals to get people in the door). The CBJ know they have to grow attendance to get the profit sharing money and thye do that, but bottom line the team is bleeding money.

 

[blahblah]

Bottom line is whether or not McConnell wants to sell. If anyone has heard him change his mind about owning the team, let them speak up.

Pesky lease deal with the County. Extremely remote we are going anywhere, even if Mac Junior wants to sell.

 

[blahblah]

The reason Phoenix and Columbus are often cited is the (lack of) profitability of both franchises. 22 of 30 NHL teams lost money last season, and of those losses 30% of the losses came from 2 franchises

Where did you come up with those numbers? I haven't done too much digging, but what I have seen indicates that 13 teams lost money in 2011-12, with the Islanders almost reaching the Jackets.

I don't really trust numbers thrown around, but there are certainly some teams right up there with Columbus. I'll be interested to see what the numbers will look like in the 2013-14 season. We fixed, or at least improved, some revenue issues. Around 3 million in losses will be addressed just in the naming rights deal with Nationwide.

 

[SuperGenius]

Where did you come up with those numbers? I haven't done too much digging, but what I have seen indicates that 13 teams lost money in 2011-12, with the Islanders almost reaching the Jackets.

I don't really trust numbers thrown around, but there are certainly some teams right up there with Columbus. I'll be interested to see what the numbers will look like in the 2013-14 season. We fixed, or at least improved, some revenue issues. Around 3 million in losses will be addressed just in the naming rights deal with Nationwide.

Right there with you, blah. I suspect the majority of the losses were resolved, win a few games and it might be significantly down or, dare I say, profitable by the end of the season. The lockout effect will hurt, though.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Where did you come up with those numbers? I haven't done too much digging, but what I have seen indicates that 13 teams lost money in 2011-12, with the Islanders almost reaching the Jackets.

I don't really trust numbers thrown around, but there are certainly some teams right up there with Columbus. I'll be interested to see what the numbers will look like in the 2013-14 season. We fixed, or at least improved, some revenue issues. Around 3 million in losses will be addressed just in the naming rights deal with Nationwide.

It came first hand from a member of CBJ management in September 2012. I have no idea how the arena deal will effect it going forward. The CBJ would have lost less money by having the lockout last all year, rather than playing (obviously a short sighted view, because the longer the lockout the tougher to retain and gain new fans).

 

[blahblah]

It came first hand from a member of CBJ management in September 2012.

Yeah, I'll just go with the numbers provided from independent sources.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Yeah, I'll just go with the numbers provided from independent sources.

So from your independent sources how much did the Coyotes and Jackets lose?

 

[Crede777]

Pesky lease deal with the County. Extremely remote we are going anywhere, even if Mac Junior wants to sell.

Owners have gotten out of lease deals in the past. There are loopholes so if the owner really wanted to sell the team out of the city he probably could.

That said we'd see it coming, it wouldn't happen overnight. And the league and city would be involved. I mean, the city and Nationwide REALLY don't want to sit on an empty arena. The city made a stink when the Jackets weren't even playing during the lockout (look at how it's affecting jobs in the arena district!).

Moving the Jackets is fantasy based on the fact that they are perpetually bad, not based on the viability of NHL in Columbus. Get decent and you would have a cluster of Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, and Pittsburgh (not to mention Nashville and Toronto/Buffalo) each with significantly different markets. It would be like the North East.

The CBJ know they have to grow attendance to get the profit sharing money and thye do that, but bottom line the team is bleeding money.

Maybe but two things:
1. There's really nothing the league can do about it if JMac wants to keep the franchise. They can't force him to sell especially with the lease deal backing him up.
2. Attendance woes are caused by poor performance, not viability of Columbus as a hockey market. We share geography and population dynamics with Chicago, Detroit, and most especially Pittsburgh. If they can support teams there is no reason why the population of Central Ohio cannot. In fact, I think Central Ohio has a higher disposable income but am not 100% sure.

You move because the city can't support a team during the highs as well as the lows. If a team were to make it to the playoffs regularly and even to the Western Conference finals but still experience poor attendance and big losses, then discussion about relocation may make sense.

 

[blahblah]

So from your independent sources how much did the Coyotes and Jackets lose?

close to 40 million combined.

 

[blahblah]

Owners have gotten out of lease deals in the past. There are loopholes so if the owner really wanted to sell the team out of the city he probably could.

There are probably loopholes, but those are usually wrapped around financial issues on the owners side. But they are usually so extreme, we'll never see it. It would also involve a lot of compensation going back to the city/county. Not to mention there were probably conditions wrapped around the Nationwide deal and the 30% stake they purchases.

This team isn't going anywhere for a long, long time unless we see some extreme issues like we saw in Phx.

 

[Crede777]

There are probably loopholes, but those are usually wrapped around financial issues on the owners side. But they are usually so extreme, we'll never see it. It would also involve a lot of compensation going back to the city/county. Not to mention there were probably conditions wrapped around the Nationwide deal and the 30% stake they purchases.

This team isn't going anywhere for a long, long time unless we see some extreme issues like we saw in Phx.

Right. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Speedy Sanderson]

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...tition_seeks_end_to_citys_arena_payments.html

It sounds like voters can't force the city to back out of the lease. This coalition seems like a bunch of attention-seekers.

 

[Samkow]

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...tition_seeks_end_to_citys_arena_payments.html

It sounds like voters can't force the city to back out of the lease. This coalition seems like a bunch of attention-seekers.

They're about a year late on having a shot at stopping this.

As the article mentions, this group got caught with a lot of fraudulent signatures during an initiative last year.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see if people can look at the bigger picture or if they're just interested in saving (25ish?) dollars a year, consequences be damned. I heard from Detroit that defaults are great for a city's credit rating.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Either way, it'll be interesting to see if people can look at the bigger picture or if they're just interested in saving (25ish?) dollars a year, consequences be damned.

For some reason, I was asked last year to sign something decrying the arena purchase. As a Delaware County resident, nothing I say or do would make a difference anyway, but (being me) I felt like jabbing a little bit.

So I asked what would become of the arena and surrounding district without a primary tenant and anything to draw people there. I **** you not, I was told that "it could become a really nice park". A. Park.

Now, I have no idea if this person had any affiliation with this group or not. It could have been some yahoo with a ham radio and a Tumblr blog and just way too much free time on his hands.

A park.

 

[Inglewood JACKets]

For some reason, I was asked last year to sign something decrying the arena purchase. As a Delaware County resident, nothing I say or do would make a difference anyway, but (being me) I felt like jabbing a little bit.

So I asked what would become of the arena and surrounding district without a primary tenant and anything to draw people there. I **** you not, I was told that "it could become a really nice park". A. Park.

Now, I have no idea if this person had any affiliation with this group or not. It could have been some yahoo with a ham radio and a Tumblr blog and just way too much free time on his hands.

A park.

But with a park you would create like 4, maybe 5 jobs.

 

[cbjfaninmo]

But with a park you would create like 4, maybe 5 jobs.

Maybe the Jackets could score more goals in a park.

 

[Samkow]

For some reason, I was asked last year to sign something decrying the arena purchase. As a Delaware County resident, nothing I say or do would make a difference anyway, but (being me) I felt like jabbing a little bit.

So I asked what would become of the arena and surrounding district without a primary tenant and anything to draw people there. I **** you not, I was told that "it could become a really nice park". A. Park.

Now, I have no idea if this person had any affiliation with this group or not. It could have been some yahoo with a ham radio and a Tumblr blog and just way too much free time on his hands.

A park.

Maybe they could rebuild the prison.

 

[NotWendell]

Maybe they could rebuild the prison.

We couldn't even score in a women's prison! (Classic!)

 

[Paisano*]

For some reason, I was asked last year to sign something decrying the arena purchase. As a Delaware County resident, nothing I say or do would make a difference anyway, but (being me) I felt like jabbing a little bit.

So I asked what would become of the arena and surrounding district without a primary tenant and anything to draw people there. I **** you not, I was told that "it could become a really nice park". A. Park.

Now, I have no idea if this person had any affiliation with this group or not. It could have been some yahoo with a ham radio and a Tumblr blog and just way too much free time on his hands.

A park.

I hope you told him where he could park his park!

 

[MFRONE]

They're about a year late on having a shot at stopping this.

As the article mentions, this group got caught with a lot of fraudulent signatures during an initiative last year.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see if people can look at the bigger picture or if they're just interested in saving (25ish?) dollars a year, consequences be damned. I heard from Detroit that defaults are great for a city's credit rating.

The public wouldn't be saving any money at all. It seems that the people who were against this don't seem to understand that the money that was spent was all coming in from the casino and if they don't go to the casino they aren't giving any money to this purchase.

Of the funds they divided it up towards a variety of things (police/fire/schools...etc) and the only money being spent is excess that was just in a general fund not earmarked for anything in particular.

 

[Mayor Bee]

The public wouldn't be saving any money at all. It seems that the people who were against this don't seem to understand that the money that was spent was all coming in from the casino and if they don't go to the casino they aren't giving any money to this purchase.

Of the funds they divided it up towards a variety of things (police/fire/schools...etc) and the only money being spent is excess that was just in a general fund not earmarked for anything in particular.

...and the fact that Franklin County voted against the casino in the first place, so as far as I'm concerned, I don't want to hear a peep from any of you city boys about where that cash is going.

 

[eljefe72]

...and the fact that Franklin County voted against the casino in the first place, so as far as I'm concerned, I don't want to hear a peep from any of you city boys about where that cash is going.

That's my feeling too. Unless you gamble at the casino, none of your money is going to the Arena. And, in my opinion, if you voted against the casino a couple years ago, you have no say in how the tax revenue is spent.

 

[major major]

That's my feeling too. Unless you gamble at the casino, none of your money is going to the Arena. And, in my opinion, if you voted against the casino a couple years ago, you have no say in how the tax revenue is spent.

I enjoy a good game or two but a casino as a revenue source is just a tax on those who don't understand probability. And as much as I'm glad to have another revenue source for the Jackets its a negative sum game on the level of nhl cities taken together to continually subsidize teams and transfer more and more community wealth to players and owners.

 

[604]

I enjoy a good game or two but a casino as a revenue source is just a tax on those who don't understand probability. And as much as I'm glad to have another revenue source for the Jackets its a negative sum game on the level of nhl cities taken together to continually subsidize teams and transfer more and more community wealth to players and owners.

I think the theory is that having a team actually generates a lot of revenue from out of towners. Owning an NHL franchise isn't a closed market setting, each game is an event that brings media and probably some tourism to the city.

Like when Columbus hosts a UFC event or conventions a lot of out of towners come and eat at the local restaurants, shop at the local stores, and generally help everywhere.

IMO that is a real benefit.

Also, the general idea is that if you can afford to go to a casino, you can afford to lose money. As a result of that money lost, there is a lot of money going to the players, a lot to the owners but also a lot to lower paying jobs like the parking attendants and the arena staff, font office staff, etc. This also has huge benefits for the city.

 

[Dr. Fire]

This whole tax argument could get a lot more interesting. I heard the other day that there may be a move afoot by groups that live outside of the city of Columbus, but work in the city and are required to pay Columbus city income tax, to get that issue back before the Ohio supreme court. The argument being that it is taxation without representation, since those people cannot vote on being taxed or not.

I am not trying to inject politics but merely see this as something that could blow everything up if it were to happen. The City would then need to find other ways to replace that tax revenue. Everything, including the CBJ and ticket buyers could be impacted. If you recall, Coleman already tried to put a $1.00 city charge on every ticket sold to any event at the Arena, but that was successfully fought off.

I would think that Casino money would also be a prime target. Hotel taxes, everything.

The CBJ could really be negatively impacted by this, if it even happens. May not ever happen.

No opinions here, just fyi.