Nathan Mackinnon - the best player in the league

[BertMcDrai]

Sure but are the voters really going to vote for Drai as McDavid is there and will probably score more points and ya everyone forgets Minny.

I honestly think that Jack Eichel might get more votes than Kaprizov if voting was held today not that I entirely agree but.......

I am not saying they will win the Hart, but if you look at stats and advances stats they both should be front runner.

Just compare Drai an MacK this season:

Goals: 26 vs 14
GWG: 8 vs 3
+/-: 18 vs 9
5 vs 5 play:
CF%: 58,5 vs 55,5
SF%:60 vs 57
GF%: 57 vs 54
XGF%: 60 vs 55,3
and all this stats while having offensive zone starts: 57% vs 72%, that means MacK starts in easier position to score points.

MacK is only leading in total points (while having played a game more)...if you exclude Empty Net Points, Drai has also 4 more total points while having played less.

That's a tier above as I said.

The season is still young, so everything can change if course.

 

[Antropovsky]

Kucherov is about the same as last year but the rest of the team is playing a lot better. Last year it was really a one man show until March.

If Kucherov had been just another star player, I really don't think we would have made the playoffs. He had to hit a whole new level of lethal to get us in. And he's still there.


I think you have to. Especially if the Leafs don't look like a real threat in the playoffs. If they don't make the final four, I think somebody's gotta go.

They could also let Tavares walk (he's a UFA) and call it somebody going.

 

[DFC]

They could also let Tavares walk (he's a UFA) and call it somebody going.

I don't think anyone believes that will solve the problem.

To me it's a pretty clear case of their star players all want to play like stars in the playoffs. So good defensive teams turn them into a perimeter team. Marner is the worst culprit for that.

I always feel like Nylander is actually their most dangerous guy in the playoffs, because he doesn't take the bait to just keep useless possession so often.

 

[wetcoast]

I am not saying they will win the Hart, but if you look at stats and advances stats they both should be front runner.

Just compare Drai an MacK this season:

Goals: 26 vs 14
GWG: 8 vs 3
+/-: 18 vs 9
5 vs 5 play:
CF%: 58,5 vs 55,5
SF%:60 vs 57
GF%: 57 vs 54
XGF%: 60 vs 55,3
and all this stats while having offensive zone starts: 57% vs 72%, that means MacK starts in easier position to score points.

MacK is only leading in total points (while having played a game more)...if you exclude Empty Net Points, Drai has also 4 more total points while having played less.

That's a tier above as I said.

The season is still young, so everything can change if course.

Look I love Drai and yes he is having an excellent season but it's going to be hard for voters to not go somewhat Daver and feel that McDavid is there and like I said McDavid will probably outscore him overall too.

 

[benfranklin]

I am not saying they will win the Hart, but if you look at stats and advances stats they both should be front runner.

Just compare Drai an MacK this season:

Goals: 26 vs 14
GWG: 8 vs 3
+/-: 18 vs 9
5 vs 5 play:
CF%: 58,5 vs 55,5
SF%:60 vs 57
GF%: 57 vs 54
XGF%: 60 vs 55,3
and all this stats while having offensive zone starts: 57% vs 72%, that means MacK starts in easier position to score points.

MacK is only leading in total points (while having played a game more)...if you exclude Empty Net Points, Drai has also 4 more total points while having played less.

That's a tier above as I said.

The season is still young, so everything can change if course.

You can cherry pick stats to fit your agenda all you want. At the end of the day, without drastically outscoring his peers, it comes down to this:

What would the Oilers be like without Draisaitl? McDavid would lead.
What would the Avalanche be like without MacKinnon? Rantanen couldnt handle it.
What would the Lightning be like without Kucherov? Point couldnt handle it.

Drais has an uphill battle to climb. I would argue Rantanen/Makar would step up for the Avs, but voters will quickly assume the above and they would assume the lightning will be a lottery team without Kuch.

Kiril honestly has the best case but seems to be falling off back to normalish.

 

[BertMcDrai]

Look I love Drai and yes he is having an excellent season but it's going to be hard for voters to not go somewhat Daver and feel that McDavid is there and like I said McDavid will probably outscore him overall too.

I didn't know that this thread is about the Hart.

It's called best player MacKinnon, and I have shown some arguments for other players, which are having a better season this far.

 

[BertMcDrai]

You can cherry pick stats to fit your agenda all you want. At the end of the day, without drastically outscoring his peers, it comes down to this:

What would the Oilers be like without Draisaitl? McDavid would lead.
What would the Avalanche be like without MacKinnon? Rantanen couldnt handle it.
What would the Lightning be like without Kucherov? Point couldnt handle it.

Drais has an uphill battle to climb. I would argue Rantanen/Makar would step up for the Avs, but voters will quickly assume the above and they would assume the lightning will be a lottery team without Kuch.

Kiril honestly has the best case but seems to be falling off back to normalish.

Cherry pick?
I have shown that Drai is in literally every stat better this season...this is the opposite of cherry picking...I could still show more because it's lopsided at this point in the season like Face-off Percentage in which he is light-years better.

Drai has shown that he is incredible when McD isn't even in the lineup...and that's now over a five season span dating back to his MVP season.

I know when it's going who wins the Hart this season it's completely different cause he is playing with one of the best to ever play and they will vote also for him.
But it's not the Hart thread.

I do like watching MacKinnon and Kuch that's nothing against them...I still think Kuch is somehow underrated on here.

 

[Dirty Mind]

Yeah, Nathan MacKinnon is probably the best player in the league in 2025.
No one is coming for your beloved McDavid Oilers fans

Can you still watch this without seething?

 

[Volica]

Can you still watch this without seething?

Yeah.
Hockey doesn’t control the emotions of my life. Please try. God bless.

 

[benfranklin]

Cherry pick?
I have shown that Drai is in literally every stat better this season...this is the opposite of cherry picking...I could still show more because it's lopsided at this point in the season like Face-off Percentage in which he is light-years better.

Drai has shown that he is incredible when McD isn't even in the lineup...and that's now over a five season span dating back to his MVP season.

I know when it's going who wins the Hart this season it's completely different cause he is playing with one of the best to ever play and they will vote also for him.
But it's not the Hart thread.

I do like watching MacKinnon and Kuch that's nothing against them...I still think Kuch is somehow underrated on here.

Drais vs Mack

Assists: 29 vs 46
5v5 Primary Assists: 10 vs 11
5v5 Secondary Assists: 5 vs 10
Powerplay Points: 16 vs 18
Even strength Points: 39 vs 42
Overtime 3v3 goals: 4 vs 1
Shooting %: 23.6 vs 9.9
5v5 Shooting %: 18.18 vs 5.1

Any guess at whose Shooting % is highly likely to drastically improve? And lol because hes currently leading the league in points while shooting like crap.


See what I did there. Its easy to pick stats that fit your narrative and what is funny about this all, MacKinnon is having a down year for him. Draisiatil is having a great year, but again, its a product of McDavid.

20-21: Both played every game
21-22: Each missed 2
22-23: Drais missed 2
23-24: Mcd missed 6 and Drais missed 1
24-25: McD missed 3

McDavid is almost literally never not in the lineup. 3 games!? Both Draid and McDavid have been incredibly healthy since 2020. I didnt check to see if they missed the same games at all, but that is a whopping 15 games total possible Drais could have played without McDavid. Nowhere near enough of a sample size to claim anything good or bad for one without the other over a 5 season stretch. They play the same games together and there is no denying that McDavid receives the tougher matchups when separated, which is still roughly 50% of the time. 50%!!!! they play together. Its a laughable argument to claim Drais doesnt benefit from McDavid. Either he is on the ice with him or receiving weaker matchups without him.

The Draisaitil obsession is like if Avs fans claimed Rantanen is better than MacKinnon. Let it go and let the big boys be.

 

[wetcoast]

I didn't know that this thread is about the Hart.

It's called best player MacKinnon, and I have shown some arguments for other players, which are having a better season this far.

It was just a comment on his season, of course McDavid is the best player in the NHL right now but we are lucky to see 3 or 4 guys who are close then some great Dmen as well.

 

[dirtydanglez]

mcdavid is more skilled but mackinnon has been more productive. mackinnon goes into tonight in 1st place for the calendar year 2024. hes 6 points ahead of mcdavid and 5 ahead of kucherov. kucherov has the highest p/g though.

 

[BertMcDrai]

Drais vs Mack

Assists: 29 vs 46
5v5 Primary Assists: 10 vs 11
5v5 Secondary Assists: 5 vs 10
Powerplay Points: 16 vs 18
Even strength Points: 39 vs 42
Overtime 3v3 goals: 4 vs 1
Shooting %: 23.6 vs 9.9
5v5 Shooting %: 18.18 vs 5.1

Any guess at whose Shooting % is highly likely to drastically improve? And lol because hes currently leading the league in points while shooting like crap.


See what I did there. Its easy to pick stats that fit your narrative and what is funny about this all, MacKinnon is having a down year for him. Draisiatil is having a great year, but again, its a product of McDavid.

20-21: Both played every game
21-22: Each missed 2
22-23: Drais missed 2
23-24: Mcd missed 6 and Drais missed 1
24-25: McD missed 3

McDavid is almost literally never not in the lineup. 3 games!? Both Draid and McDavid have been incredibly healthy since 2020. I didnt check to see if they missed the same games at all, but that is a whopping 15 games total possible Drais could have played without McDavid. Nowhere near enough of a sample size to claim anything good or bad for one without the other over a 5 season stretch. They play the same games together and there is no denying that McDavid receives the tougher matchups when separated, which is still roughly 50% of the time. 50%!!!! they play together. Its a laughable argument to claim Drais doesnt benefit from McDavid. Either he is on the ice with him or receiving weaker matchups without him.

The Draisaitil obsession is like if Avs fans claimed Rantanen is better than MacKinnon. Let it go and let the big boys be.

Literally every stat you picked is not really a good stat.
Since when are secondary points something good?
Same with Powerplay...the last years Drai was called a PP merchand but this is only negative for Drai and no other player ever on here.

And the last three stats you picked are more in favor for Drai...that is not cherry picking in a good way... especially when almost 25% of his Even Strength points are on a empty net. (Even not 5vs5, I give you that.)

I also said since his MVP season which you left off for games missed of McD.

Sorry but this year (until today) you will not find any good stat to prop your guy...the only thing is more total points which I can admit (regardless of ENP)

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

PPG ---> PPG minus empty net points

2022-2023
McDavid 1.87 ---> 1.78
Kucherov 1.38 ---> 1.30
MacKinnon 1.56 ---> 1.51

2023-2024
McDavid 1.74 ---> 1.67
Kucherov 1.78 ---> 1.60
MacKinnon 1.71---> 1.61

2024-2025
McDavid 1.58 ---> 1.58
Kucherov 1.69 ---> 1.56
MacKinnon 1.62 ---> 1.35

Last 5 years
McDavid 1.73 ---> 1.64
Kucherov 1.57 ---> 1.46
MacKinnon 1.53 ---> 1.45

 

[WalterLundy]

Streaks and stretches isn't how this works though if it ends up with pretty much nothing to show up for in the end. Kucherov and MacKinnon look to be nearly as dominant like last season and might be repeating the seasons they had last year. If we assume these seasons to be all three of them at their peaks, the generational talent looks to be slighly on the losing end once again. From what I've seen this season, Draisaitl seems to be the best Oiler even. McDavid is a potential annual 60+ goal scorer, but he's not making anywhere close to the best of it. Even a 39 year old Ovechkin easily outscores him. Plus Kucherov came within 9 points of McDavid's best season and doesn't look like slowing down any time soon. Peer-to-peer domination to me is one of the best measurements in comparing the greatest or best players and he's just not showing enough of it on a constant regular basis.

Instead of being a 60+ goal scorer annually he has proven to be second all time in assists (when era adjusted) through 678 games in an NHL career. McDavid’s best season may still be out there but even if we assume he peaked already it is so much higher than any of his peers could ever dream of. I’ll use peer vs peer dominance even to demonstrate this.

McDavid in 2021 dominated his peers (2nd-10th in ppg average) on a level that clears all seasons but these since Gretzky’s first season: 82-88 Gretzky, 89, 93 and 96 Lemieux.

For points in 2021 he dominated his peers by the same 2-10th average metric that exceeded all but 82-87 Gretzky and 89 Lemieux. In 2023 it was the exact same for seasons above it but with the additions of 81 and 91 Gretzky and 88 Lemieux.

Point being is the guy is only trailing peak/prime Gretzky and Lemieux for peer dominance. The two greatest offensive forces the game has ever seen. The fact that he has done this twice should speak volumes. No player from the last 20 years can remotely compete with his peak season peer dominance.

 

[benfranklin]

Literally every stat you picked is not really a good stat.
Since when are secondary points something good?
Same with Powerplay...the last years Drai was called a PP merchand but this is only negative for Drai and no other player ever on here.

And the last three stats you picked are more in favor for Drai...that is not cherry picking in a good way... especially when almost 25% of his Even Strength points are on a empty net. (Even not 5vs5, I give you that.)

I also said since his MVP season which you left off for games missed of McD.

Sorry but this year (until today) you will not find any good stat to prop your guy...the only thing is more total points which I can admit (regardless of ENP)

My point was you cherry picked stats while skipping assists?! One of the major ones. You picked only stats that Drais is better at currently, while ignoring assists and points. Kindof big deals there.

I showed both primary and secondary because a lot of people like to claim free points. Less PPP, less EVP, less overall points. I added OT goals because that is obviously part of GWG as well. Everyone here will agree 3v3 goals are barely above empty net points, so dont brag about his GWG while ignoring that half are in the gimmicky 3v3.

I did every season for games missed starting with the asterisk covid only played junk Canada teams season.

Instead of being a 60+ goal scorer annually he has proven to be second all time in assists (when era adjusted) through 678 games in an NHL career. McDavid’s best season may still be out there but even if we assume he peaked already it is so much higher than any of his peers could ever dream of. I’ll use peer vs peer dominance even to demonstrate this.

McDavid in 2021 dominated his peers (2nd-10th in ppg average) on a level that clears all seasons but these since Gretzky’s first season: 82-88 Gretzky, 89, 93 and 96 Lemieux.

For points in 2021 he dominated his peers by the same metric that exceeded all but 82-87 Gretzky and 89 Lemieux. In 2023 it was the exact same for seasons above it but with the additions of 81 and 91 Gretzky and 88 Lemieux.

Point being is the guy is only trailing peak/prime Gretzky and Lemieux for peer dominance. The two greatest offensive forces the game has ever seen. The fact that he has done this twice should speak volumes. No player from the last 20 years can remotely compete with his peak season peer dominance.

Think hell get a regular season superstar banner when they raise 97 to the rafters in Edm? Or do we think it will go up somewhere else also when he wins a Cup there?

 

[WalterLundy]

My point was you cherry picked stats while skipping assists?! One of the major ones. You picked only stats that Drais is better at currently, while ignoring assists and points. Kindof big deals there.

I showed both primary and secondary because a lot of people like to claim free points. Less PPP, less EVP, less overall points. I added OT goals because that is obviously part of GWG as well. Everyone here will agree 3v3 goals are barely above empty net points, so dont brag about his GWG while ignoring that half are in the gimmicky 3v3.

I did every season for games missed starting with the asterisk covid only played junk Canada teams season.


Think hell get a regular season superstar banner when they raise 97 to the rafters in Edm? Or do we think it will go up somewhere else also when he wins a Cup there?

“regular season superstar”…..
You lose all credibility when you say stuff like this. He’s third all time in playoff ppg and very well can overtake Lemieux for second by career’s end as he briefly did already this season. He had the biggest margin over a non teammate in the history of the NHL playoffs this past season, had the highest era adjusted playoff point output and broke Gretzky’s single season playoff assist record.

Draisaitl went goalless in the finals and if he’s even remotely healthy they win a cup. He had 3 points in 7 games (Crosby’s stat line in 09 when they won by the way) and I’m sure people say he was cup worthy. This is in a year where nobody really saw them even making it to the finals. It’s not McDavid’s fault if he can’t win a cup with arguably the greatest playoff run ever. You can’t always have cups won for you with massive support. Kind of like Makar did for MacKinnon and perhaps even Malkin for Crosby in 09. You also can’t play in a non salary cap era if you are McDavid with several HOF players like Gretzky and Mario did. Anyone who is unbiased knows this.

 

[authentic]

In forsbergs 2nd season the scoring was the highest it has been since then, the differnce between isnt much higher scoring area, check out for your self to see how little or if any differnce it is between Forsberg and McDavid era

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

from 1972-1994 was a higher scoring era, every of those seasons beat all who has been since then.

1995-96 was the only really high scoring year, along with 2005-06 to a lesser extent. There was absolutely a noticeable difference

 

[benfranklin]

“regular season superstar”…..
You lose all credibility when you say stuff like this. He’s third all time in playoff ppg and very well can overtake Lemieux for second by career’s end as he briefly did already this season. He had the biggest margin over a non teammate in the history of the NHL playoffs this past season, had the highest era adjusted playoff point output and broke Gretzky’s single season playoff assist record.

Draisaitl went goalless in the finals and if he’s even remotely healthy they win a cup. He had 3 points in 7 games (Crosby’s stat line in 09 when they won by the way) and I’m sure people say he was cup worthy. This is in a year where nobody really saw them even making it to the finals. It’s not McDavid’s fault if he can’t win a cup with arguably the greatest playoff run ever. You can’t always have cups won for you with massive support. Kind of like Makar did for MacKinnon and perhaps even Malkin for Crosby in 09. You also can’t play in a non salary cap era if you are McDavid with several HOF players like Gretzky and Mario did. Anyone who is unbiased knows this.

How many Cups?

 

[OilWagon]

How many Cups?

Congratulations, you're on par with Facebook commenter's

 

[crowfish]

PPG ---> PPG minus empty net points

2022-2023
McDavid 1.87 ---> 1.78
Kucherov 1.38 ---> 1.30
MacKinnon 1.56 ---> 1.51

2023-2024
McDavid 1.74 ---> 1.67
Kucherov 1.78 ---> 1.60
MacKinnon 1.71---> 1.61

2024-2025
McDavid 1.58 ---> 1.58
Kucherov 1.69 ---> 1.56
MacKinnon 1.62 ---> 1.35

Last 5 years
McDavid 1.73 ---> 1.64
Kucherov 1.57 ---> 1.46
MacKinnon 1.53 ---> 1.45

It's funny how many people are not aware of how lucky MacKinnon has been with cheap points so far this year. That is a near .3 increase on his pts/game. That is insane. McDavid would be 1.85 pts/game right now if he was running like that. It's the difference between a 110 pt pace & a 132 point pace.

You wouldn't think empty nets for the final 2-3 minutes of only games where you are winning would make that big of a difference but we are on pace for back-to-back historic empty net point performances. Last year Kucherov won the Art Ross with the margin of extra empty net points vs the 2nd highest guy. If MacKinnon gets the Ross this year it will almost certainly be the same thing. Empty net points were never a factor in the Art Ross trophy in any season since the salary cap so it is a bit odd that they are so relevant all the sudden.

 

[Goose]

Congratulations, you're on par with Facebook commenter's

I’m not sure if that’s an insult or not.

If I were consigned to a ring of hell and given a choice of it being populated with Facebook or hfboards commentators, that would be an awful decision to have to make.

Come to think of it, maybe hell is just being forced to pick between the two and you live in a perpetual set of angst trying to make that decision.

 

[Planetov]

Kucherov has been the best player in the league for the past 2 years now. That's enough for someone to declare the number 1 in the league. Maybe age is catching up with the speedy playing style of 97. And MacKinnon is close but just a tad behind Kucherov. All praise MacKinnon, not enough love for the celebral Tampa Bay player which goes along his business more quietly. I don't think 97 will catch either of them this season. He doesn't look like the peak form of himself a couple of years ago. Too less pragmatic goal oriented plays. He hasn't adapted to a slightly less speed oriented playing style good enough and this lends me to believe he will age faster than a player like Draisatil or Kucherov. He is not in 99 or 66 league and I don't hate on him. I don't care how many Rosses he may still win and I doubt there will be many more if any. Just trying to give a neutral observation. The excuse of having nothing to prove in the regular season and concentrating on the playoffs and the stanley cup doesn't cut it for me. What if players like 66 or 99 thought like that. That's one of the reasons the truly greats of the game separate themselves from the normal star players along with their peak and prime performances and consistency (which I agree doesn't work for guys like Lemieux or Orr, but they were so much better than the rest of the league that they belong in this group). His 1 or 2 truly exceptional seasons statitistically seem to have been his peak. For 66 or 99 it would have been their average season in their prime. As good as Kucherov, Draisaitl or MacKinnon are, players like prime 66 or 99 wouldn't lose multiple scoring chases against them let's be real here.

 

[benfranklin]

Congratulations, you're on par with Facebook commenter's

Do they have more Cups than McDrais too?

Kucherov has been the best player in the league for the past 2 years now. That's enough for someone to declare the number 1 in the league. Maybe age is catching up with the speedy playing style of 97. And MacKinnon is close but just a tad behind Kucherov. All praise MacKinnon, not enough love for the celebral Tampa Bay player which goes along his business more quietly. I don't think 97 will catch either of them this season. He doesn't look like the peak form of himself a couple of years ago. Too less pragmatic goal oriented plays. He hasn't adapted to a slightly less speed oriented playing style good enough and this lends me to believe he will age faster than a player like Draisatil or Kucherov. He is not in 99 or 66 league and I don't hate on him. I don't care how many Rosses he may still win and I doubt there will be many more if any. Just trying to give a neutral observation. The excuse of having nothing to prove in the regular season and concentrating on the playoffs and the stanley cup doesn't cut it for me. What if players like 66 or 99 thought like that. That's one of the reasons the truly greats of the game separate themselves from the normal star players along with their peak and prime performances and consistency (which I agree doesn't work for guys like Lemieux or Orr, but they were so much better than the rest of the league that they belong in this group). His 1 or 2 truly exceptional seasons statitistically seem to have been his peak. For 66 or 99 it would have been their average season in their prime. As good as Kucherov, Draisaitl or MacKinnon are, players like prime 66 or 99 wouldn't lose multiple scoring chases against them let's be real here.

We need multiple paragraphs here or some indentation or something. At least you didnt begin sentences with lower case letters so plus for that.

But this is not readable. I stopped after the first two sentences laughing. Its MacKinnon and McDavid and Makar then a huge drop off to anyone else.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

1995-96 was the only really high scoring year, along with 2005-06 to a lesser extent. There was absolutely a noticeable difference

1995-96 was the only really high scoring year, along with 2005-06 to a lesser extent. There was absolutely a noticeable difference

ok, the average per game during forsbergs seasons( not counting his last with only 2 games) was 2.792 which translates to 229 goals on a 82 game season, the average so far for McDavid is 2.956
which translates to 242, a 13 goal difference

, is it more? Yes, but not so much of a differnce that the narratives goes. the scoring was 94.6 procent of what is has been through McDavids years.