Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

[T REX]

Outside of stats, but ok, sure "hard to argue".

I guess that is my point..usually anyone can manipulate some stats to fit their particular narrative.

Love Mack. Love Kuch. Respect McDavid's greatness.

It takes NOTHING away from Mack or Kuch. McDavid is just on another level.

Again...not much to argue.

 

[Coffey]

Again...not much to argue.

Don't look at the last 3 pages

 

[benfranklin]

I guess that is my point..usually anyone can manipulate some stats to fit their particular narrative.

Love Mack. Love Kuch. Respect McDavid's greatness.

It takes NOTHING away from Mack or Kuch. McDavid is just on another level.

Again...not much to argue.

Were now 15 pages into arguing it so....

You're going off the eye test which I respect. McDavid is great. Statistically, from the OP, MacKinnon has been better so I suppose you're right. Nothing to argue about.

From 2023 to now, the difference is a Rocket, an Art Ross, and a Conn Smyth all in McDavid's favour.

You forgot all the stats and the * since those trophies came games played from before 1.1.23.

I get the point and youre not wrong, but youre hijacking this since 1.1.23 thread with non relevant information.

 

[PuckG]

Its ridiculous not to. The team around him wouldnt be there because of the cap, let alone changing history with draft picks.

But ill play your game. Put MacKinnon on the Oilers for all those seasons and

1. Avalanche draft McDavid in 2015 and not Rantanen.
2. McDavid, assuming the same points in 2016 would have got the Avs to the playoffs and likely lost early. In turn they would not have traded Duchene, extended him, and not finished in the running for the lottery pick and thus not drafted Makar.
3. So this would be McDavid, Duchene, and Landeskog likely losing playoff series similar to what Edmonton has done.
4. MacKinnon did not do enough early in his career to change the trajectory of Oilers getting high picks so we can assume they still would have Draisaitl and RNH.
5. Oilers would finally be good enough to make consecutive playoff runs, but the defense and goaltending is still crap so even MacKinnon going off would not win them a Cup.

So in an insane turn of events, nothing has changed, except both are losers in Edmonton.

Changing goalposts isn’t helping any of your arguments and the weird tangents are just that - weird.

We’re comparing McDavid vs MacKinnon from a talent perspective as per the title. Once you’ve grasped that and are able to put your bias aside, try again.

 

[benfranklin]

Changing goalposts isn’t helping any of your arguments and the weird tangents are just that - weird.

We’re comparing McDavid vs MacKinnon from a talent perspective as per the title. Once you’ve grasped that and are able to put your bias aside, try again.

Ok then as of today from 1.1.23, MacKinnon has been the better player so put McDavid on todays Avs and hes at the top of the league scoring like MacKinnon is. MacKinnon would be at the top also with the Oilers team to work with.

You're the one who wants to go back to 21-22, but pretend like nothing else would change and were playing a video game with no salary cap. McDavid's cap hit would go to whatever team and that would hinder the GM's ability to make other moves, like it has in EDM. Its the nature of the game and the Avalanche will be in cap hell soon as well with Rantanen/Makar making $12+ each. They were fortunate to make the best team we've potentially ever seen, at least post cap era and a lot of that was MacKinnon's $6.3M cap hit, Makar's ELC, Kadri's $4.5M, etc...

 

[T REX]

Were now 15 pages into arguing it so....

You're going off the eye test which I respect. McDavid is great. Statistically, from the OP, MacKinnon has been better so I suppose you're right. Nothing to argue about.


You forgot all the stats and the * since those trophies came games played from before 1.1.23.

I get the point and youre not wrong, but youre hijacking this since 1.1.23 thread with non relevant information.

My issue is that anyone can take a smaller subset of numbers and then formulate a narrative around those specific numbers. It is usually a random chosen set of numbers. That's fine but it only tells a story through that narrow lens with little context outside of said set of stats.

Make sense?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Ok then as of today from 1.1.23, MacKinnon has been the better player so put McDavid on todays Avs and hes at the top of the league scoring like MacKinnon is. MacKinnon would be at the top also with the Oilers team to work with.

only because McDavid has played less games
since Jan 1, 2023....

MacKinnon: 1.66 pts/game
McDavid: 1.73 pts/game

not to mention 5 major individual Trophies to MacKinnon's 2

so you're wrong again

 

[PuckG]

Ok then as of today from 1.1.23, MacKinnon has been the better player so put McDavid on todays Avs and hes at the top of the league scoring like MacKinnon is. MacKinnon would be at the top also with the Oilers team to work with.

You're the one who wants to go back to 21-22, but pretend like nothing else would change and were playing a video game with no salary cap. McDavid's cap hit would go to whatever team and that would hinder the GM's ability to make other moves, like it has in EDM. It’s the nature of the game and the Avalanche will be in cap hell soon as well with Rantanen/Makar making $12+ each. They were fortunate to make the best team we've potentially ever seen, at least post cap era and a lot of that was MacKinnon's $6.3M cap hit, Makar's ELC, Kadri's $4.5M, etc...

For the 5th time, the salary cap is not relevant when comparing the skill and talent between two players. The amount of typing you do to make no relevant point and to change goalposts is genuinely astonishing.

 

[Video Nasty]

Ok then as of today from 1.1.23, MacKinnon has been the better player so put McDavid on todays Avs and hes at the top of the league scoring like MacKinnon is. MacKinnon would be at the top also with the Oilers team to work with.

Bear with me a moment.

Based off what I’ve seen of your posts inside this thread, you believe MacKinnon has been better than McDavid because he has 11 more points while playing 13 games more from January 1, 2023 through November 28, 2024.

That is your argument.

What happens if McDavid outscores him by 12 points during the final five weeks of 2024, a very real possibility considering he has outscored him by 9 in the past 18 days despite not playing the previous 6 days and playing one less game?

Can’t you see that by your own rules, you would have to concede that McDavid has been better since January 1, 2023? But it would only come about because McDavid outscores him over a five week stretch post Thanksgiving to New Years?

Do you see how silly this argument is to begin with when it crumbles in that way?

 

[benfranklin]

My issue is that anyone can take a smaller subset of numbers and then formulate a narrative around those specific numbers. It is usually a random chosen set of numbers. That's fine but it only tells a story through that narrow lens with little context outside of said set of stats.

Make sense?

I agree with that. The OP or rather the Avs media guy he quoted started at 1.1.23 likely becuase going back to the start of the 22-23 season, I'm guessing McDavid has more total points. Taking out the PP is an intersting arguement though

But yes overall starting at 2023, which at least is a new year is a cherry picked date to fit his narrative. If McDavid won the Cup and obviously still the Conn Smythe as well, it would vastly overshadow MacKinnons Hart/Lindsay. Since he didn't, here we are.

only because McDavid has played less games
since Jan 1, 2023....

MacKinnon: 1.66 pts/game
McDavid: 1.73 pts/game

not to mention 5 major individual Trophies to MacKinnon's 2

so you're wrong again

Obviously the OP excluded any of the 22-23 regualr season awards since the date of this started after 1.1.23. Make your own thread for 22-23 to 24-25 for regular season supremacy.

For the 5th time, the salary cap is not relevant when comparing the skill and talent between two players. The amount of typing you do to make no relevant point and to change goalposts is genuinely astonishing.

It is relevant because you're assuming the same teammates would be there and they are a hgue reason for each player getting the points they do. I get it, math isnt your strong suit, but im not blindly taking Mario Lemieux and putting him on the 1982 Oilers and assume he would get 200+ points. If McDavid is on the 2016 Avalanche, Rantanen and Makar would not be there to win in 21-22. Does McDavid still win a Cup with Duchene and Landeskog. No.

Bear with me a moment.

Based off what I’ve seen of your posts inside this thread, you believe MacKinnon has been better than McDavid because he has 11 more points while playing 13 games more from January 1, 2023 through November 28, 2024.

That is your argument.

What happens if McDavid outscores him by 12 points during the final five weeks of 2024, a very real possibility considering he has outscored him by 9 in the past 18 days despite not playing the previous 6 days and playing one less game?

Can’t you see that by your own rules, you would have to concede that McDavid has been better since January 1, 2023? But it would only come about because McDavid outscores him over a five week stretch post Thanksgiving to New Years?

Do you see how silly this argument is to begin with when it crumbles in that way?

Its not my argument. It is the OP referencing an Avs media guy and obviously he picked that date because MacKinnon had more starting then vs not if he went back to the beginning of the 22-23 season. ES/5v5 points isnt close, which obviously is citing real hockey and not simply the PP and an argument for a more complete hockey player.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Obviously the OP excluded any of the 22-23 regualr season awards since the date of this started after 1.1.23. Make your own thread for 22-23 to 24-25 for regular season supremacy.

dude learn to read, I said McDavid has more points-per-game than MacKinnon since Jan 1st, 2023

 

[GOilers88]

I agree with that. The OP or rather the Avs media guy he quoted started at 1.1.23 likely becuase going back to the start of the 22-23 season, I'm guessing McDavid has more total points. Taking out the PP is an intersting arguement though

But yes overall starting at 2023, which at least is a new year is a cherry picked date to fit his narrative. If McDavid won the Cup and obviously still the Conn Smythe as well, it would vastly overshadow MacKinnons Hart/Lindsay. Since he didn't, here we are.

Obviously the OP excluded any of the 22-23 regualr season awards since the date of this started after 1.1.23. Make your own thread for 22-23 to 24-25 for regular season supremacy.


It is relevant because you're assuming the same teammates would be there and they are a hgue reason for each player getting the points they do. I get it, math isnt your strong suit, but im not blindly taking Mario Lemieux and putting him on the 1982 Oilers and assume he would get 200+ points. If McDavid is on the 2016 Avalanche, Rantanen and Makar would not be there to win in 21-22. Does McDavid still win a Cup with Duchene and Landeskog. No.

Its not my argument. It is the OP referencing an Avs media guy and obviously he picked that date because MacKinnon had more starting then vs not if he went back to the beginning of the 22-23 season. ES/5v5 points isnt close, which obviously is citing real hockey and not simply the PP and an argument for a more complete hockey player.

Feel like MacK and McDavid are both about as complete of hockey players that you'll find out there.

Seems like you're splitting cunnies here.

 

[Video Nasty]

Its not my argument. It is the OP referencing an Avs media guy and obviously he picked that date because MacKinnon had more starting then

So why have you spent pages agreeing with it?

 

[benfranklin]

Feel like MacK and McDavid are both about as complete of hockey players that you'll find out there.

Seems like you're splitting cunnies here.

I think it is mainly referencing simialr production between Mac and McD, but since MacKinnon's are not as PP dependent, they're more "valuable". Obviously a goal is a goal, but that is the narrative the OP's post referenced since 1.1.23.

Here is 5v5 since the beginning of 22-23. Faceoffs were interesting. Mac sucks at faceoffs and defaults to Rantanen on his off side as much as possible and still took a ton more than McDavid.

Player	GP	TOI	Goals	Total Assists	First Assists	Second Assists	Total Points	IPP	Shots	SH%	Penalties Drawn	Giveaways	Takeaways	Hits	Hits Taken	Shots Blocked	Faceoffs Won	Faceoffs Lost	Faceoffs %
Nathan MacKinnon	176	2980.13	62	94	61	33	156	77.61	542	11.44	56	134	83	109	145	104	1129	1355	45.45
Connor McDavid	177	2852.2	57	88	57	31	145	78.38	433	13.16	74	139	123	203	202	70	948	904	51.19

dude learn to read, I said McDavid has more points-per-game than MacKinnon since Jan 1st, 2023

I was referencing all of McDavid's 22-23 trophies. Obviously the OP picked 1.1.23 and didnt mention those trophies to support his narrative.

So why have you spent pages agreeing with it?

Above is the 22-23 to present. Each player won a Hart and Lindsay since. This is what the OP was aiming for and then all the Oilers fans came in and started screaming playoffs and obviously Avs fans will counter with Mac winning the Cup right before the listed date and McDavid losing his Cup chance.

 

[Video Nasty]

I think it is mainly referencing simialr production between Mac and McD, but since MacKinnon's are not as PP dependent, they're more "valuable". Obviously a goal is a goal, but that is the narrative the OP's post referenced since 1.1.23.

Here is 5v5 since the beginning of 22-23. Faceoffs were interesting. Mac sucks at faceoffs and defaults to Rantanen on his off side as much as possible and still took a ton more than McDavid.

Player	GP	TOI	Goals	Total Assists	First Assists	Second Assists	Total Points	IPP	Shots	SH%	Penalties Drawn	Giveaways	Takeaways	Hits	Hits Taken	Shots Blocked	Faceoffs Won	Faceoffs Lost	Faceoffs %
Nathan MacKinnon	176	2980.13	62	94	61	33	156	77.61	542	11.44	56	134	83	109	145	104	1129	1355	45.45
Connor McDavid	177	2852.2	57	88	57	31	145	78.38	433	13.16	74	139	123	203	202	70	948	904	51.19

I was referencing all of McDavid's 22-23 trophies. Obviously the OP picked 1.1.23 and didnt mention those trophies to support his narrative.


Above is the 22-23 to present. Each player won a Hart and Lindsay since. This is what the OP was aiming for and then all the Oilers fans came in and started screaming playoffs and obviously Avs fans will counter with Mac winning the Cup right before the listed date and McDavid losing his Cup chance.

Forget fan allegiances. Hockey fans know McDavid is in the top tier on his own. MacKinnon playing at a similar level for a little while when completely healthy to a McDavid playing with nagging injuries makes this even more obvious than it should be. McDavid shouldn’t have to sit out and preserve his PPG like other all-timers for everyone to recognize this.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Ben is spazzing out in here , it's him and Anson Carter vs The world

I know what side I'm on

 

[WiLBoY]

Forget fan allegiances. Hockey fans know McDavid is in the top tier on his own. MacKinnon playing at a similar level for a little while when completely healthy to a McDavid playing with nagging injuries makes this even more obvious than it should be. McDavid shouldn’t have to sit out and preserve his PPG like other all-timers for everyone to recognize this.

Actually hockey fans that watch the game know there isn't much of a diff between the two. McDavid is slightly ahead but let's not kid ourselves and make excuses as to why McDavid production went down. Every player plays injured. If he was truly injured he would sit out

 

[benfranklin]

Forget fan allegiances. Hockey fans know McDavid is in the top tier on his own. MacKinnon playing at a similar level for a little while when completely healthy to a McDavid playing with nagging injuries makes this even more obvious than it should be. McDavid shouldn’t have to sit out and preserve his PPG like other all-timers for everyone to recognize this.

Need to stop with the fake injury excuse. If he is injured, dont play. If youre out there, every point or lack there of counts the same as your opponent.

 

[crowfish]

Threads like this are embarrassing and deserve to age as badly as it will.

You will know when someone is on McDavid's level, you won't need a thread to speculate about it, and it won't be for at least another 5-6 years. I know the McDavid deniers are not very patient, they desperately want someone to be as good or better than McDavid, but give it another half decade or so and you might get your wish.

 

[Coffey]

they desperately want someone to be as good or better than McDavid, but give it another half decade or so and you might get your wish.

It's though, because after his peak we have the grace period that Crosby has.

 

[TheLegend27]

How many Cups does MacKinnon have?
How many Cups does McDavid have?

Until he catches up, he will be lesser than. Cups matter bro.

Mackinnon is a lesser player than Claude Provost and will never catch up to him(9 cups), got it​

I expect nothing from Vegas Fans but your logic still disappoints me

 

[benfranklin]

Mackinnon is a lesser player than Claude Provost and will never catch up to him(9 cups), got it​

I expect nothing from Vegas Fans but your logic still disappoints me

Knights Cups: 1
Kraken Cups: 0

 

[McPoyle]

Thread is being derailed.

 

[Kerberos]

Is there a limit to the amount of non-sequiturs, reductive arguments and strawman fallacies one person is allowed to possess?

 

[benfranklin]

Is there a limit to the amount of non-sequiturs, reductive arguments and strawman fallacies one person is allowed to possess?

7. 7 is the limit.