Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?
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PainForShane
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Yep. And the fact is McDavid was pointless in both game 7s last year, one against Vancouver and one against Florida. The rest of the Edm team was good enough to win against Vancouver but not good enough to win against Florida.
Also, the fact is that MacKinnon isn't some scrub, to no one's surprise he won the Hart last year (over a healthy McDavid I might add) in no small part because he has more dimensions to his game. The fact is McD is a better player than someone like RNH or Warren Foegele, but MacK is arguably at the same level or potentially slightly better (hence this thread).
You can keep going if you want. There is no fact that McD is the ideal person that everyone would pick in a 7 game series. What you have is a feeling, same as @PaulD. The way I feel, if McD were really that good, he would've scored a couple of points in game 7 and Edmonton would've had a cup parade. At least so far, he hasn't able to get it done.
For what it's worth, I really do hope he does sometime. But until then, it's completely reasonable to prefer a different player who provides about the same level of offense, is likely a better dressing room leader, and has also factually gotten it done (unlike McD at least so far) all the while having a more complete game
PuckG
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The bolded is blatantly incorrect when statistics prove otherwise. Reference the previous page.
PainForShane
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Do statistics prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career? Because that's what I was referencing in my post.
If they do, would love to see it. Thx in advance
PuckG
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The statistics show a clear discrepancy in McDavid vs MacKinnon in elimination games, yes.
They also show a clear discrepancy in McDavid’s impact on his team relative to MacKinnon’s impact on his.
Once again, reference the previous page.
It’s perfectly fine to have a preference for a player, but irrespective of that, one player is objectively better than the other and it is very clear who.
That’s not even taking into account MacKinnon having a Norris level defenceman playing behind him and a substantially better surrounding core.
PainForShane
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I didn't ask you to move the goalposts. I asked you whether your statistics "prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career?" It's right there in the extremely short (2-sentence) post you quoted.
Based on your most recent answer, it appears they do not.
In the meantime, according to you, "it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player" and I'd like to go a step further, if that player was the most recent league MVP it's even more understandable to have a preference for that player. This is regardless of the other stuff I mentioned which I noticed you failed to address.
If you honestly believe what you wrote in the bolded above (ie 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for a player'), I'd encourage you to get over yourself. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. What you have is an opinion, same as me and PaulD. All our viewpoints are equally valid so long as we can back them up (and with players this close in ability / impact, you can definitely make an argument for either player)
He absolutely has a strong argument over Matthews, anyone saying Matthews is as good as MacKinnon is delusional. Matthews is a better goalscorer but that’s it.
The Macho King
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MacKinnon best in the league at getting 4 points against the Blackhawks. Ghost against actual good teams.
He has an argument, but not a strong one. Most level headed people put them in the same category, and don't think that Matthews slipped from his 2022 Hart form last year when he posted a 69 goal Selke season.
These are the threads that are going to put MacK in the mythical skater mode, where people pretend like his physical attributes and leadership add more value than what is already present on the ice.
Randyne
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MacKinnon has zero points in game 7 SCF too.
No player can win a cup on their own.
PuckG
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You’re unbelievably confused. Moving goalposts is honing on 2 game 7’s and ignoring both of the below posts outlining statistics refuting everything you’re saying.
Anyways, once you can establish that I am referencing the below statistics over a substantial body of work instead of your “opinion on a game 7”, then we can continue the conversation. To be clear, the below is not opinion. Stop making it personal and try again - using objective information like the below poster did.
And no, your opinion (and mine) is not more valid than the below or than the objective information that we have to work with.
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PainForShane
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Sorry kid. What I've been saying is I'd rather have MacK in a winner take all situation. So game seven performance matters quite a bit to that. And as far as I can tell the stats you quoted from a different poster have literally nothing to do with any of the points I've been arguing. That is what I meant when I referred to 'moving the goalposts.'
To the other poster whose stats you quoted (@Randyne) -- if neither has done much in a game seven then they're even, no? Ie by that logic Connor isn't better than MacK so therefore they're the same tier, which is basically what I've been arguing. In the meantime, during Colorado's cup run they beat tampa in game 6 SCF 2-1 after MacK factored in on both goals thereby preventing a game 7. He shouldn't be penalized for that. I wonder what would've happened if McD would've factored in on 2 goals in last year's game 7, my guess is we would've had a parade in Edmonton. That's my opinion though, it's clearly not a fact.
And all things being equal (or close to it), according to PuckG 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player' so I think I should be good here. Of course he also said my opinion is not more valid than some random stats he quoted from Randyne's post (which have nothing to do with my argument), so who knows what he actually means to be saying.
For me? Choosing either player to build a team around would be a valid choice (I'd choose MacKinnon if possible, but imo they're about the same). It's not a particularly difficult opinion to justify or defend, among other things (of which there are many) he won the league MVP last year
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PuckG
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“Sorry kid.” Are you incapable of arguing in good faith and with objective information?
Once again, if you’re honing in on 2 game 7’s and ignoring their entire body of work to make your argument, it’s a shit argument.
Having a stylistic preference for a player is perfectly fine - it doesn’t make it a good choice. As per the stats provided, your choice is worse than the alternative.
If you do not recognize how deluded the bolded sounds, I can’t help you. That’s a lot of typing to make absolutely no relevant point.
PainForShane
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WTF?
I've been arguing / discussing in good faith this entire time. I might stop now, based on this most recent post.
Is having a stylistic preference for a player perfectly fine... or is it not? To me, your posts seem 'unbelievably confused' which is the personal attack you threw at me a couple posts up.
If you honestly have a problem with ppl having different opinions than you (which may be the case based on your last two posts), I'd encourage you to consider staying away from message boards. People will share their opinions here, as they should.
In the meantime, MacKinnon is a damn good hockey player who won the Hart last year, as well as a Stanley Cup, in addition to having more ES points than anyone in the world the last year or two, which was brought up in the initial post in this thread. And all the other stuff I brought up which you still never addressed. So it's perfectly reasonable that a person might choose him to build a team around (which is what I personally would do). It's also reasonable to pick McDavid as a person to build around (which seems to be what you would do). Both players are very good at hockey so you can't really make a wrong choice here.
Not sure what else to say to you rn. Good luck to you, in life
PuckG
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You’re again confusing the statistics that were posted with opinion.
Regardless, “MacKinnon = McDavid because both of them didn’t produce in game 7’s,” will be one of the more hysterical arguments I’ve seen on this site.
Good luck.
PainForShane
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Too bad that had nothing to do with my main claim / arguments etc. As everyone can see, that sentence wasn't anywhere in the summary post you responded to, it was a direct response to someone saying, "well, MacK didn't do anything in game 7s either." You can look back at the thread if you want, based on how this convo has gone I'm not expecting much from your posts.
Good luck to you too!
Randyne
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If he is so impactful, why he didn't prevent game 5 and 6?
It's a team sport. McDavid could've score 4 points in his last game of the SCF (like he did in game 5) if his team was good enough.
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McDavid played in 76 games, so this isn't entirely accurate. Mackinnon was full deserving of the award, as he was ragged previously for not staying healthy enough so it's full marks, but your statement is still incorrect. Since you seem to be bent on facts.
Kerberos
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If you're gonna blatantly lie, at least put some effort into making it believable.
McDavid missed games and played with a core injury the entire season.
PainForShane
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To me, 76 games out of 82 counts as healthy. If you disagree that's fine.
In contrast, MacK lost many more games than that most years and was a Hart nominee / top 5 finisher however many times even in spite of missing however many games per year. I'm reading your post to mean that we're in agreement on the overall idea and you wrote to poke at one of my assumptions (which is fine), if I misread your post lmk. That said, I do honestly think that playing 76 out of 82 games counts as a healthy season.
And yes, to Kerberos' point McD had a niggle for part of the year (arguably most of the year), but lots of players have niggles and play through them (like McD did last year). To me I still give full credit to MacK and his 50 goal, 140 point season (more points than McD in every single season except 2022-2023 which was a season for the ages).
***
To Randyne -- when Colorado won the cup they swept Edm that year, meaning MacK partly helped prevent games 5, 6, 7 by his play. So there's your answer. Colorado was better than Edm that year tho (to your point it's teams who win the Stanley Cup, COL was a much better team that year). And factoring in on both points in an SCF game 6 to prevent a game 7 should be celebrated not demeaned. Not entirely sure what you're arguing rn.
Also, in your post you claimed, "McDavid could've scored (sic) 4 points in his last game of the SCF (like he did in game 5) if his team was good enough," I think that's a legitimately ridiculous take. It's not Edm's fault McD wasn't on the scoresheet in games 6 or 7. Edm was a good team last year, they beat VAN and won an elimination game 6 SCF without McD's contribution on the scoresheet. And McDavid's one of the best players in the world who's excellent at driving play, you'd expect him to score a couple of points in the most important game of his life. Especially because Edmonton has tons of offensive weapons. McD wasn't able to put up points in game 7 THIS TIME and if you believe it's not that important that's up to you.
If he gets another chance I hope he scores 5 goals and ten points, and finishes his game off with a blocked shot in the slot. I really do. But, he hasn't done it yet. Hopefully he gets there someday soon
robbieberns
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Who is Nathan MacKinnon if not a poor man’s Martin Necas? Just a Canes fan here having a bit of fun, be well and stay blessed my friends.
Randyne
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Absolutely it is. It's a team sport. Just make more room for your 4 pts guy.
John Mandalorian
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Carolina should pay Necas 15 million...or even 12.7 million. That would be fantastic.
