Nathan MacKinnon, on par with the best in business?

[PaulD]

No kidding. Some guys prefer facts, others prefer feelings.

Some guys can't think without a calculator.

 

[PainForShane]

No kidding. Some guys prefer facts, others prefer feelings.

Yep. And the fact is McDavid was pointless in both game 7s last year, one against Vancouver and one against Florida. The rest of the Edm team was good enough to win against Vancouver but not good enough to win against Florida.

Also, the fact is that MacKinnon isn't some scrub, to no one's surprise he won the Hart last year (over a healthy McDavid I might add) in no small part because he has more dimensions to his game. The fact is McD is a better player than someone like RNH or Warren Foegele, but MacK is arguably at the same level or potentially slightly better (hence this thread).

You can keep going if you want. There is no fact that McD is the ideal person that everyone would pick in a 7 game series. What you have is a feeling, same as @PaulD. The way I feel, if McD were really that good, he would've scored a couple of points in game 7 and Edmonton would've had a cup parade. At least so far, he hasn't able to get it done.

For what it's worth, I really do hope he does sometime. But until then, it's completely reasonable to prefer a different player who provides about the same level of offense, is likely a better dressing room leader, and has also factually gotten it done (unlike McD at least so far) all the while having a more complete game

 

[PaulD]

No kidding. Some guys prefer facts, others prefer feelings.

LOL

 

[PuckG]

Yep. And the fact is McDavid was pointless in both game 7s last year, one against Vancouver and one against Florida. The rest of the Edm team was good enough to win against Vancouver but not good enough to win against Florida.

Also, the fact is that MacKinnon isn't some scrub, to no one's surprise he won the Hart last year (over a healthy McDavid I might add) in no small part because he has more dimensions to his game. The fact is McD is a better player than someone like RNH or Warren Foegele, but MacK is arguably at the same level or potentially slightly better (hence this thread).

You can keep going if you want. There is no fact that McD is the ideal person that everyone would pick in a 7 game series. What you have is a feeling, same as @PaulD. The way I feel, if McD were really that good, he would've scored a couple of points in game 7 and Edmonton would've had a cup parade. At least so far, he hasn't able to get it done.

For what it's worth, I really do hope he does sometime. But until then, it's completely reasonable to prefer a different player who provides about the same level of offense, is likely a better dressing room leader, and has also factually gotten it done (unlike McD at least so far) all the while having a more complete game

The bolded is blatantly incorrect when statistics prove otherwise. Reference the previous page.

 

[PainForShane]

The bolded is blatantly incorrect when statistics prove otherwise. Reference the previous page.

Do statistics prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career? Because that's what I was referencing in my post.

If they do, would love to see it. Thx in advance

 

[PuckG]

Do statistics prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career? Because that's what I was referencing in my post.

If they do, would love to see it. Thx in advance

The statistics show a clear discrepancy in McDavid vs MacKinnon in elimination games, yes.

They also show a clear discrepancy in McDavid’s impact on his team relative to MacKinnon’s impact on his.

Once again, reference the previous page.

It’s perfectly fine to have a preference for a player, but irrespective of that, one player is objectively better than the other and it is very clear who.

That’s not even taking into account MacKinnon having a Norris level defenceman playing behind him and a substantially better surrounding core.

 

[PainForShane]

The statistics show a clear discrepancy in McDavid vs MacKinnon in elimination games, yes.

They also show a clear discrepancy in McDavid’s impact on his team relative to MacKinnon’s impact on his.

Once again, reference the previous page.

It’s perfectly fine to have a preference for a player, but irrespective of that, one player is objectively better than the other and it is very clear who.

That’s not even taking into account MacKinnon having a Norris level defenceman playing behind him and a substantially better surrounding core.

I didn't ask you to move the goalposts. I asked you whether your statistics "prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career?" It's right there in the extremely short (2-sentence) post you quoted.

Based on your most recent answer, it appears they do not.

In the meantime, according to you, "it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player" and I'd like to go a step further, if that player was the most recent league MVP it's even more understandable to have a preference for that player. This is regardless of the other stuff I mentioned which I noticed you failed to address.

If you honestly believe what you wrote in the bolded above (ie 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for a player'), I'd encourage you to get over yourself. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. What you have is an opinion, same as me and PaulD. All our viewpoints are equally valid so long as we can back them up (and with players this close in ability / impact, you can definitely make an argument for either player)

 

[olli]

There really isn't a sound argument for what he has done to create any separation from Kucherov. Objectively, McDavid has an argument over every player in the league. MacKinnon doesn't really have a strong argument for being better than a handful of players(Kucherov, McDavid, Matthews)

He absolutely has a strong argument over Matthews, anyone saying Matthews is as good as MacKinnon is delusional. Matthews is a better goalscorer but that’s it.

 

[The Macho King]

MacKinnon best in the league at getting 4 points against the Blackhawks. Ghost against actual good teams.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He absolutely has a strong argument over Matthews, anyone saying Matthews is as good as MacKinnon is delusional. Matthews is a better goalscorer but that’s it.

He has an argument, but not a strong one. Most level headed people put them in the same category, and don't think that Matthews slipped from his 2022 Hart form last year when he posted a 69 goal Selke season.

These are the threads that are going to put MacK in the mythical skater mode, where people pretend like his physical attributes and leadership add more value than what is already present on the ice.

 

[Randyne]

I asked you whether your statistics "prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7?"

MacKinnon has zero points in game 7 SCF too.

or that's he's won a cup so far is his career?"

No player can win a cup on their own.

 

[PuckG]

I didn't ask you to move the goalposts. I asked you whether your statistics "prove that McDavid had a point in either game 7 last year and / or that's he's won a cup so far is his career?" It's right there in the extremely short (2-sentence) post you quoted.

Based on your most recent answer, it appears they do not.

In the meantime, according to you, "it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player" and I'd like to go a step further, if that player was the most recent league MVP it's even more understandable to have a preference for that player. This is regardless of the other stuff I mentioned which I noticed you failed to address.

If you honestly believe what you wrote in the bolded above (ie 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for a player'), I'd encourage you to get over yourself. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. What you have is an opinion, same as me and PaulD. All our viewpoints are equally valid so long as we can back them up (and with players this close in ability / impact, you can definitely make an argument for either player)

You’re unbelievably confused. Moving goalposts is honing on 2 game 7’s and ignoring both of the below posts outlining statistics refuting everything you’re saying.

Anyways, once you can establish that I am referencing the below statistics over a substantial body of work instead of your “opinion on a game 7”, then we can continue the conversation. To be clear, the below is not opinion. Stop making it personal and try again - using objective information like the below poster did.

And no, your opinion (and mine) is not more valid than the below or than the objective information that we have to work with.

All wrong:
Most PPG When Facing Elimination in Playoff games:
McD=1.64 >> Mack=.77
Wayne=1.45 > Mario=1.40
Ovi=.83 > Sid=.77
Points When Facing Elimination in Playoff games:

	GP	G	A	P
Wayne Gretzky	22​	11​	21​	32​
Alex Ovechkin	29​	13​	11​	24​
Connor McDavid	14​	8​	15​	23​
Mario Lemieux	15​	9​	12​	21​
Sidney Crosby	22​	4​	13​	17​
Nathan MacKinnon	13​	3​	7​	10​

Mack is not carrying his team:
COL with Mack P%=.591
COL w/o Mack P%=.623
Even in his SC season Mack wasn't carrying his team (he missed 17 games):
COL with Mack P%=.708
COL w/o Mack P%=.794

McDavid carrying his team by a lot:
EDM with McDavid P%=.581
EDM w/o McDavid P%=.458

Their teams P% w/o them:
COL .623 >> EDM .458
Even with McDavid EDM is worse than COL without Mackinnon.
Switch them, and McDavid with multiple cups already.

team	with-w/o	player	GP	P%	P% impact
WSH	with	Alexander Ovechkin	1444	.611	+.152
WSH	w/o	Alexander Ovechkin	61	.459
EDM	with	Connor McDavid	664	.581	+.123
EDM	w/o	Connor McDavid	59	.458
EDM/LAK	with	Wayne Gretzky*	1173	.587	+.087
EDM/LAK	w/o	Wayne Gretzky*	83	.500
PIT	with	Mario Lemieux*	745	.540	+.033
PIT	w/o	Mario Lemieux*	275	.507
PIT	with	Sidney Crosby	1295	.605
PIT	w/o	Sidney Crosby	213	.634	–.029
COL	with	Nathan MacKinnon	812	.591
COL	w/o	Nathan MacKinnon	73	.623	–.032

*WG seasons 1979/80-1994/95 EDM+LAK
*ML seasons 1984/85-1996/97

 

[PainForShane]

You’re unbelievably confused. Moving goalposts is honing on 2 game 7’s and ignoring both of the below posts outlining statistics refuting everything you’re saying.

Anyways, once you can establish that I am referencing the below statistics over a substantial body of work instead of your “opinion on a game 7”, then we can continue the conversation. To be clear, the below is not opinion. Stop making it personal and try again - using objective information like the below poster did.

And no, your opinion is not more valid than the below or than the objective information that we have to work wlevel of player

Sorry kid. What I've been saying is I'd rather have MacK in a winner take all situation. So game seven performance matters quite a bit to that. And as far as I can tell the stats you quoted from a different poster have literally nothing to do with any of the points I've been arguing. That is what I meant when I referred to 'moving the goalposts.'

To the other poster whose stats you quoted (@Randyne) -- if neither has done much in a game seven then they're even, no? Ie by that logic Connor isn't better than MacK so therefore they're the same tier, which is basically what I've been arguing. In the meantime, during Colorado's cup run they beat tampa in game 6 SCF 2-1 after MacK factored in on both goals thereby preventing a game 7. He shouldn't be penalized for that. I wonder what would've happened if McD would've factored in on 2 goals in last year's game 7, my guess is we would've had a parade in Edmonton. That's my opinion though, it's clearly not a fact.

And all things being equal (or close to it), according to PuckG 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player' so I think I should be good here. Of course he also said my opinion is not more valid than some random stats he quoted from Randyne's post (which have nothing to do with my argument), so who knows what he actually means to be saying.

For me? Choosing either player to build a team around would be a valid choice (I'd choose MacKinnon if possible, but imo they're about the same). It's not a particularly difficult opinion to justify or defend, among other things (of which there are many) he won the league MVP last year

 

[PuckG]

Sorry kid. What I've been saying is I'd rather have MacK in a winner take all situation. So game seven performance matters quite a bit to that. And as far as I can tell the stats you quoted from a different poster have literally nothing to do with any of the points I've been arguing. That is what I meant when I referred to 'moving the goalposts.'

To the other poster whose stats you quoted (@Randyne) -- if neither has done much in a game seven then they're even, no? Ie by that logic Connor isn't better than MacK so therefore they're the same tier, which is basically what I've been arguing. In the meantime, during Colorado's cup run they beat tampa in game 6 SCF 2-1 after MacK factored in on both goals thereby preventing a game 7. He shouldn't be penalized for that. I wonder what would've happened if McD would've factored in on 2 goals in last year's game 7, my guess is we would've had a parade in Edmonton. That's my opinion though, it's clearly not a fact.

And all things being equal (or close to it), according to PuckG 'it's perfectly fine to have a preference for the player' so I think I should be good here. Of course he also said my opinion is not more valid than some random stats he quoted from Randyne's post (which have nothing to do with my argument), so who knows what he actually means to be saying.

For me? Choosing either player to build a team around would be a valid choice (I'd choose MacKinnon if possible, but imo they're about the same). It's not a particularly difficult opinion to justify or defend.

“Sorry kid.” Are you incapable of arguing in good faith and with objective information?

Once again, if you’re honing in on 2 game 7’s and ignoring their entire body of work to make your argument, it’s a shit argument.

Having a stylistic preference for a player is perfectly fine - it doesn’t make it a good choice. As per the stats provided, your choice is worse than the alternative.

If you do not recognize how deluded the bolded sounds, I can’t help you. That’s a lot of typing to make absolutely no relevant point.