Nashville Predators talk - The Offseason

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Scoresberg

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The "the coaches ruined Tomasino" thing is tired, he hasn't shown anything except being able to put up .5 ppg in sheltered minutes against grinders. He at least played his normal position and was given top6 minutes and PP time.
I know you were trying to diss Tomasino, but having a 0.5 PPG player in your 4th line is pretty f***ing good, imo. Especially for a team struggling with depth scoring. At least a lot better than some of the guys we're throwing out there night in night out.
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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I know you were trying to diss Tomasino, but having a 0.5 PPG player in your 4th line is pretty f***ing good, imo. Especially for a team struggling with depth scoring. At least a lot better than some of the guys we're throwing out there night in night out.
The thing that worries me most about Tomasino is that he didn't exactly dominate offensively in Milwaukee. Well, I didn't watch the games, so maybe he was flying around out there and looking great every night, I don't really know, but I didn't get that sense from the Milwaukee observers? 18pts in 22 games is pretty good, and IIRC he tended to have more shots than most players, 67 shots in 22 games is a pretty good rate indicating offensive involvement. But then the playoffs... just 6 points in 15 games, which was 9th on the team. And the same sort of thing happened the previous season in the playoffs too, when had just 9 points in 16 games, 7th on the team.

I guess I would expect if he's really going to be a top-6 NHL winger with scoring potential, he should be pretty dominant by now at the AHL level? Whereas it seems like, particularly when the going gets a little tougher in the playoffs, he sort of vanishes into the crowd a bit? He's still good at that level... but so is Rocco Grimaldi.

Last couple of seasons we still had some gaping openings for scoring positions, so I didn't think there was any harm taking a look at him in the Preds lineup, also considering we were in a "retooling" sort of phase. But now... with extra scoring veterans added, with more of a "competitive" mindset, with other rookies making stronger pushes... I'm not sure there's going to be room. Our top 3 playoff scorers in Milwaukee were L'Heureux, Kemell, and Svechkov, not Tomasino. Heck, we let Afanaseyev walk away for nothing and he was ahead of Tomasino down there too.

Maybe he's a little pissed that the organization isn't giving him too much of a chance and isn't really fired up to be playing in Milwaukee? But in a way, that'd just be another strike against him, right?
:dunno:
 
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Predsanddead24

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I know you were trying to diss Tomasino, but having a 0.5 PPG player in your 4th line is pretty f***ing good, imo. Especially for a team struggling with depth scoring. At least a lot better than some of the guys we're throwing out there night in night out.
He put up points at the fifth highest rate on the team last season. I know scoring isn’t everything but I just still can’t understand why Tomasino became the whipping boy.
 
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nine_inch_fang

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I know you were trying to diss Tomasino, but having a 0.5 PPG player in your 4th line is pretty f***ing good, imo. Especially for a team struggling with depth scoring. At least a lot better than some of the guys we're throwing out there night in night out.
Sure, but, if he's really as good as people think then he should have been getting more points against the tweeners and grinders. His performance when pushed into top 6 and PP minutes was negligible, just like his performance in the AHL playoffs. There really is a theme here if you're willing to see it.

That said, I'm not against giving the kid a chance. I just don't see how he has any leverage to expect anything other then a minimum contract. Maybe his expectation of more is a signal to his issue against stiffer competition. Wanting and being will to put in the work are two different things.

And, I'm not going to expect miracles if/when he does get a chance.
 

Armourboy

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He put up points at the fifth highest rate on the team last season. I know scoring isn’t everything but I just still can’t understand why Tomasino became the whipping boy.
Sadly I think this is just one of those cases where he is putting up points, but he's not doing it the " right way ". He will likely end up being another of those guys that eventually goes and plays for someone else and has a pretty solid career.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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I'm just not sure where Tomasino would even fit into the current lineup? I guess you put him on the 4th line with McCarron again, and Jankowski in the pressbox? Then he hangs around being a candidate to slide up into more of a scoring role in the event of injury to one of our veteran wingers?

It's an option, but I'm not too optimistic that it will show us anything new about Tomasino. I guess if you argue he can be a soft 0.5 ppg player in that role, as he basically has so far in his career, that's not anything terrible. But it will always leave us begging the question of what he could do with a more involved role, and why he doesn't get one. And probably leave him wondering too. :dunno:

I imagine he just wants out of Dodge at this point. And if I was in his camp, I think the surest way to get there is to just sign the contract, play hard, get noticed enough by another team that I either make it worth the Preds while to trade me for a pick, or worth some other team's notice to pick me up on waivers. He shouldn't be looking at this season as a chance to earn money. This is his chance to go somewhere else to try to make money somewhere else in future years.
 

Softball99

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4th liners get minimum contracts, since he's only productive w/ Big Sexy it's unrealistic to expect anything else. How are Fiala and Tolvanen comparable? Toatlly different reasons for departure.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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4th liners get minimum contracts, since he's only productive w/ Big Sexy it's unrealistic to expect anything else. How are Fiala and Tolvanen comparable? Toatlly different reasons for departure.
Well I'm not sure Tolvanen is that different? To me he looked good with us, looked like maybe he was deserving of more opportunity, and yet was not afforded that opportunity, waived, lost. Which to me seems like a legitimate possibility to be the same path that Tomasino ends up following?

The main difference might be that I also thought Tolvanen worked very diligently at becoming a well-rounded player, at learning to play a more complete 2-way game, to attempt to add a physical element to his game. He seemed to be doing exactly what the organization was asking of him, and yet was still cast aside. I'm not sure I've seen any such signs of Tomasino adapting his playing style.

Fiala is of course a totally different case.
 

Predsanddead24

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Sure, but, if he's really as good as people think then he should have been getting more points against the tweeners and grinders. His performance when pushed into top 6 and PP minutes was negligible, just like his performance in the AHL playoffs. There really is a theme here if you're willing to see it.

That said, I'm not against giving the kid a chance. I just don't see how he has any leverage to expect anything other then a minimum contract. Maybe his expectation of more is a signal to his issue against stiffer competition. Wanting and being will to put in the work are two different things.

And, I'm not going to expect miracles if/when he does get a chance.
He produced points at a higher rate than anyone except for the first line and Novak last season and produced this highest rates in the few times he got ice time with other skill players. His PP performance was underwhelming but totally in line with what the 2nd unit did generally all season. The AHL performance is the biggest knock on him for sure but I think his NHL performance has been good enough I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately I think there is plenty to criticize Tomasino for but he seems to get so much more criticism than other players. For example, while Evangelista certainly passes the eye test more strongly what exactly is the numbers argument that he is any better than Tomasino?
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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He produced points at a higher rate than anyone except for the first line and Novak last season and produced this highest rates in the few times he got ice time with other skill players. His PP performance was underwhelming but totally in line with what the 2nd unit did generally all season. The AHL performance is the biggest knock on him for sure but I think his NHL performance has been good enough I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately I think there is plenty to criticize Tomasino for but he seems to get so much more criticism than other players. For example, while Evangelista certainly passes the eye test more strongly what exactly is the numbers argument that he is any better than Tomasino?
I am just assuming in the end it comes down to off-ice/organizational observations that us fans will never see? Statistics won't show the full story. We can only assume based on what has actually happened in terms of on-ice deployment that there is something they like about how Evangelista comports himself, vs. something they don't like correspondingly about Tomasino? :dunno:

I know it's not a scientific or satisfactory answer, but past a certain point, in our darkened room, we have to start making some kinds of assumptions about why they don't seem to like Tomasino, despite numbers that might otherwise look pretty good? :dunno:
 

Gh24

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I am just assuming in the end it comes down to off-ice/organizational observations that us fans will never see? Statistics won't show the full story. We can only assume based on what has actually happened in terms of on-ice deployment that there is something they like about how Evangelista comports himself, vs. something they don't like correspondingly about Tomasino? :dunno:

I know it's not a scientific or satisfactory answer, but past a certain point, in our darkened room, we have to start making some kinds of assumptions about why they don't seem to like Tomasino, despite numbers that might otherwise look pretty good? :dunno:
Assuming they don't like him. But I do agree that there's usually more behind the decisions we fans don't see or know about
 
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originalpredfan

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When I read comments about Tomasino not getting a fair chance or fans not understanding why he isn't up with the big team, I can only believe that those who have seen him on a daily basis, (the coaching staff) possibly may have better insight as to why he is in his current situation. I know Trotz has not contacted me to interview for the coaching staff.
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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I think the above 2 comments are exactly it. We do have to realize we're not getting paid the big bucks to watch these guys, we don't spend our time with them outside of 2.5 hrs every few nights on TV, watching them all around the game, aside from tuning in to the broadcasts at puck drop. There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes, I've seen that even with my kids in minor hockey, it will be amplified big time at the megabucks NHL level. It's not all statistics on NHL.com.
 

Predsanddead24

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When I read comments about Tomasino not getting a fair chance or fans not understanding why he isn't up with the big team, I can only believe that those who have seen him on a daily basis, (the coaching staff) possibly may have better insight as to why he is in his current situation. I know Trotz has not contacted me to interview for the coaching staff.
I've got to say I've never really understood using appeals to authority as an argument. Should this board function as only a place to agree with the decisions the team makes? Because I don't find that particularly interesting. It also assumes that coaches are infallible and never make a poor decision.
I think the above 2 comments are exactly it. We do have to realize we're not getting paid the big bucks to watch these guys, we don't spend our time with them outside of 2.5 hrs every few nights on TV, watching them all around the game, aside from tuning in to the broadcasts at puck drop. There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes, I've seen that even with my kids in minor hockey, it will be amplified big time at the megabucks NHL level. It's not all statistics on NHL.com.
I agree to an extent but I'm just trying to understand why fan perception seems to be significantly higher for Evangelista (and to a lesser extent Parsinnen) when compared to Tomasino. I get preferring Evangelista and even fall into that category myself but there certainly isn't much in the numbers there that suggest he should be held in such a higher regard.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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I've got to say I've never really understood using appeals to authority as an argument. Should this board function as only a place to agree with the decisions the team makes? Because I don't find that particularly interesting. It also assumes that coaches are infallible and never make a poor decision.
Oh I agree 100%. It's just... to me, we've been down that path for 3 years now, and it hasn't gotten us any closer to an understanding?

I agree to an extent but I'm just trying to understand why fan perception seems to be significantly higher for Evangelista (and to a lesser extent Parsinnen) when compared to Tomasino. I get preferring Evangelista and even fall into that category myself but there certainly isn't much in the numbers there that suggest he should be held in such a higher regard.
When I watch the games, I feel like Evangelista is a tad more "energetic" in some ways. He's not really physical and has no defense either? But he does seem a bit more "bouncier" as he tries to generate offense? But end of the day, the numbers aren't that much better, especially considering utilization metrics/linemates/etc. Parssinen's attributes are even more qualitative. He is just bigger and better at shielding pucks, basically.

End of the day, I can only assume the team sees things off-ice that we don't. I have been pushing for the last few seasons to see Tomasino utilized in higher roles. I actually really liked the energy he seemed to have in the pre-season Euro-tour when they demoted him, where other people seemed to take the management narrative of him coming to camp somehow "unprepared". That didn't fit what I saw. But as this case has dragged out, I have simply come to the conclusion that there is SOMETHING going on here that I can't see. Because I can't accept the situation based on what I do see. I've been down that path of questioning management often enough over the past 3 years, that I figure there has to be something else going on?

Or, if there isn't something else going on, ok... management is making a mistake. I saw that happen with Tolvanen. Sometimes management makes mistakes and is simply wrong. But it doesn't change things... we still have to move on and look at the next options. I'm at the point now of hoping Tomasino goes somewhere else and makes our management look dumb, a la Tolvanen. Not out of any particular love for Tomasino. I don't know him or care about him specifically. Rather just so if we have blind spots in our prospect evaluation/development approach, those are exposed and we can do a better job of fixing those problems in the future.
:dunno:
 
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originalpredfan

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I've got to say I've never really understood using appeals to authority as an argument. Should this board function as only a place to agree with the decisions the team makes? Because I don't find that particularly interesting. It also assumes that coaches are infallible and never make a poor decision.

I agree to an extent but I'm just trying to understand why fan perception seems to be significantly higher for Evangelista (and to a lesser extent Parsinnen) when compared to Tomasino. I get preferring Evangelista and even fall into that category myself but there certainly isn't much in the numbers there that suggest he should be held in such a higher regard.
For the record, I didn't say coaches are infallible, I said They "possibly may have better insight".
 
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Softball99

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When I watch the games, I feel like Evangelista is a tad more "energetic" in some ways. He's not really physical and has no defense either? But he does seem a bit more "bouncier" as he tries to generate offense? But end of the day, the numbers aren't that much better, especially considering utilization metrics/linemates/etc. Parssinen's attributes are even more qualitative. He is just bigger and better at shielding pucks, basically.
I agree...if you combine Arvidson and Tomasino you get an Evangelista:cool:
 
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Predsanddead24

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Oh I agree 100%. It's just... to me, we've been down that path for 3 years now, and it hasn't gotten us any closer to an understanding?


When I watch the games, I feel like Evangelista is a tad more "energetic" in some ways. He's not really physical and has no defense either? But he does seem a bit more "bouncier" as he tries to generate offense? But end of the day, the numbers aren't that much better, especially considering utilization metrics/linemates/etc. Parssinen's attributes are even more qualitative. He is just bigger and better at shielding pucks, basically.

End of the day, I can only assume the team sees things off-ice that we don't. I have been pushing for the last few seasons to see Tomasino utilized in higher roles. I actually really liked the energy he seemed to have in the pre-season Euro-tour when they demoted him, where other people seemed to take the management narrative of him coming to camp somehow "unprepared". That didn't fit what I saw. But as this case has dragged out, I have simply come to the conclusion that there is SOMETHING going on here that I can't see. Because I can't accept the situation based on what I do see. I've been down that path of questioning management often enough over the past 3 years, that I figure there has to be something else going on?

Or, if there isn't something else going on, ok... management is making a mistake. I saw that happen with Tolvanen. Sometimes management makes mistakes and is simply wrong. But it doesn't change things... we still have to move on and look at the next options. I'm at the point now of hoping Tomasino goes somewhere else and makes our management look dumb, a la Tolvanen. Not out of any particular love for Tomasino. I don't know him or care about him specifically. Rather just so if we have blind spots in our prospect evaluation/development approach, those are exposed and we can do a better job of fixing those problems in the future.
:dunno:
Yeah I mean I've pretty much given up on Tomasino being successful here and recognize the reality that Tomasino is not long for the Preds. But I also just don't understand why the sentiment here generally (and you probably don't fall in that category) is much higher on Tomasino than Evangelista.
For the record, I didn't say coaches are infallible, I said They "possibly may have better insight".
Fair enough. It's true coaches generally have much better insight than the peanut gallery but I don't find it a compelling argument at the micro level since you could make that statement for any decision.
 
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glenngineer

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Evangelista wins board battles. He’s also a sponge. He’s learned from ROR how to lift the stick and steal the puck effectively.

If a player isn’t scoring at a PPG by their second full season in the AHL, they’re probably not top 6 material. The outlier is true power forwards who normally take long to develop.

Tomasino needs to come to camp and light the world on fire if he wants a chance to succeed. He probably needs to hang around Marchessault to learn how to take his size and speed to the next level like JM has. If he doesn’t, he’ll be gone sooner than later.
 
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