Nash Trade Redux

[noupf]

Good point but how about Nash scores a goal forget carry the offense? Imagine he doesn't hit 20 goals this season, now that's embarrassing

shhhhhhhhh, you'll get ridiculed if you use stats to back up the "nash sucks" arguments.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

Prove it.

Okay

Rangers fans will crucify me for saying so, but I'd actually rather go after Carter than Nash.

Carter is a little younger, his cap hit is more than 2.6M less and he is a lot less "valuable" in terms of what assets you have to give up. The length of his deal stinks, but the cap hit is actually pretty manageable and I actually think he and Richards could be awesome together.

I haven't weighed in on Nash's value and I don't particularly want him in NY, though I do think he would make us a much greater threat this year. I've never been a huge fan of Nash; I like him, I know he can dazzle, but to me he's always been overrated, and I would rather just stay the course and not move any roster players/assets/add his contract going forward. All that said, Columbus fans ARE, indeed, going to be sore when they see what kind of return Nash brings in, if traded. Especially this IheartZherdev clown who has 9 posts per page everytime I click in one of these threads to see if there's been any actual news/rumors.

You have too much personal interested invested in the situation buddy. Nash isn't going to get the return a lot of you are expecting. I've seen big name players get traded for very good returns. I've never seen anyone traded for the kind of return being speculated in a lot of the posts here. When Nash goes, you're going to be disappointed. I can't understand how someone could care so much as to spend hours and hours out of the last several days constantly defending his value to a bunch of people who aren't even remotely going to have an impact on what his value ultimately turns out to be. You should get some fresh air.

At the deadline I said, **** it pay the price for Nash, and I don't even LIKE Nash. I'm really NOT sure he'd be the difference here but he IS one player who plays the way we need to be playing. He can create his own chances, that's for sure.

I would take Semin for 2 years at 5M in NY and gladly forget all about Rick Nash.

I doubt we end up with Ryan, but I have no interest in Nash at this point. He's a good player, but Howson is out of his mind and we just finished first in the East and were 1 game away from the SCF. I don't feel compelled to shake things up enough to land Nash.

 

[varanger94]

I tend to root for players that are willing to do anything to win hockey games.

Ive never gotten that sense with Nash. Theres a ton of excuses you can use for him -- not wanting to take another head-shot is probably the #1 excuse.

He can put up his #'s, but regardless, he sure seems like a player thats all sizzle and no steak.

Just let me say this. If the Rangers called up a rookie and he made that lazy turnover and even lazier penalty n the first period, which led to a pp goal. . Do you think the kid would see the ice the rest of the game?????? This is our superstar.

 

[Jarkko Immonen]

Rick Nash would thrive on most teams in this league. This team sucks. I also believe he is feeling effects of previous concussion.

 

[NYRFAN218]

Rick Nash would thrive on most teams in this league. This team sucks. I also believe he is feeling effects of previous concussion.

If he is then he shouldn't be playing. To me, it looks like he's playing like he's afraid of getting another. Refuses to throw the body, soft in the corners, and doesn't get into the dirty areas. This looks NOTHING like the Nash that played during the regular season last year.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

This team is awful. Hard to score when you're barely in the zone for it/chasing down failed passes/no one else near you for help.

 

[SA16]

Rick Nash would thrive on most teams in this league. This team sucks. I also believe he is feeling effects of previous concussion.

Was he feeling those effects when he had 5 goals in his first 9 games back?

 

[smoneil]

Prove it.

Ooh! I want to play!

All from the first two pages of posting history (filtered to a year ago and further back)--ie every post made before Rick Nash played a single game for the Rangers:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52203619&postcount=113

I'd rather wait until the deadline to make a move, personally. We might find that we don't NEED to make a move (if Dubi bounces back, Kreider performs to expectations and Cally/MDZ/Stepan/Hagelin all keep up and/or progress).

Besides, you don't make trades now to address future log-jams. Remember Immonen? Anisimov as our first line center? Prucha? Ethan Werek? Sanguinetti? Grachev? Those guys were all going to bump people out of roster spots too. We hope for the best for Miller, Fasth, Thomas, et al, but it's bad management to move them before the log jam exists. Hell, our biggest weakness this past playoffs was lack of depth. We still have a couple of holes to fill before we need to worry about any kind of log jam situation.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52322039&postcount=89

For me (and to be clear, I've NEVER wanted Nash on the Rangers, regardless of the price) it's more about the fact that Nash comes with a pack of excuses. Yes, his team is bad. He's not the only star player to play on a bad team. Those other players still find a way to put up star stats.

The Rangers used to make a living getting guys like Nash. Expensive. Underwhelming. Supposedly going to be a "totally different player" as soon as they pull on a Rangers' sweater. Bottom line, almost every single time, that underwhelming player was just as underwhelming (frankly, they were usually worse) when they got to the Rangers.

The excuses are also ridiculous when you consider the team that he would be joining. Nash plays well with Team Canada? Lovely for him. If you don't know this, let me remind you--the Rangers aren't Team Canada. They don't have the skill and they don't play anything even resembling the same system. The other popular excuse--Nash would put up more points when surrounded by more talented players--who would that be, exactly? Gaborik and Callahan play the same position. Richards plays with Gaborik. The whole reason the Rangers seem to be interested in Nash is because they have trouble scoring. Doesn't it strike you as odd that one of the excuses for Nash is that he'll score more when surrounded by players/a system that doesn't score many goals?

Finally, the biggest knock against acquiring Nash is that he just doesn't know how to win. He's been in the league a long time, and he hasn't ever been a winner. Even his biggest accomplishments are things that he didn't win outright (he tied for the Richard in the weakest year ever in the history of that trophy). Nash was developed amid failure. He's seen highly touted young players fail one after the other. Season after season, he's breathed, slept, eaten and lived failure. When a player does that for 10 years, I'm sorry, but he's not going to be part of any solution. The Rangers, with the team they have, came within two games of the Stanley Cup finals. Subtracting key pieces from that puzzle for a player who only knows how to lose is just pure foolishness.

Yes, Nash is a talented player with some appealing stats. The Rangers have been fooled into believing in such players too many times in the past. At the end of the day, he's just another overpaid "what could have been" who doesn't know how to win.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52369377&postcount=581

I was pretty clearly referring to the upper end of his goal/assist ranges, which would have had Nash "easily" putting up 80+ points. Something he has indeed NEVER done (and he's only ever been close in that one season--his next highest total is 10 points lower).

As for how "calm" I am, I'm just frustrated. I'm sick of seeing (presumably) younger Rangers fans getting sucked into the same backwards thinking that set this franchise back for over a decade. Most of us who were around for the 97-03 quagmire remember that those teams were full of "names" who had phenomenal talent, gaudy stats with former teams and astronomical salaries. They routinely washed out in failure. If you want to win, you fill a roster with winners. It's that easy. Stats don't mean a damn thing if the player doesn't know what it takes to win. Stats that a player will "probably" put up in a new environment mean even less.

Yes, this thread is "intolerable." It would be less so if Columbus fans and their GM would stop trying to polish up their Subaru and trying to convince us that it would be a Ferrari in our driveway.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52740873&postcount=844

I think people are too focused on stats at the expense of the other areas required to win.

I will be all on board for trading for Nash if any of his advocates can satisfactorily answer any of these questions:

1- Why has Nash been unable to put up elite stats regardless of his supporting cast. Plenty of other players (including Gaborik) have done so. Why not Nash?

2- How will Nash, a player who--according to even his staunchest supporters--enjoys and spreads a "country club" atmosphere throughout the locker room, react to having a disciplinarian like Torts as his coach? How will he react to being put in his place by Callahan? Nash is used to having power/authority in the locker room (and using that influence to slack off). How will he and his little primadonna attitude react when he becomes just another guy in a locker room full of guys who play hockey in a way he never has (giving it everything/the right way/it's just pain as opposed to the country club motif)?

3- With Prust and (if traded) Dubinsky gone, who kills penalties? Stepan wasn't exactly great in the role, and there's no way Callahan can handle this many minutes two seasons in a row. People on here are worried about missing Gaborik until December? I'm more worried that we might be missing half of each of our two best PK units (Boyle/no more Prust and Callahan/no more Dubinsky). This team can't afford to dip on the PK.

If Sather makes a move for Nash and Nash turns out to NOT be better than he's shown so far (pretty damn likely IMO) OR if Nash arrives and gets bent out of shape because he's now in a room where self-sacrifice rules over lounging around in a country club, then the whole thing could blow up before it even has a chance.

Stay away from Nash. The guy is toxic.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52744477&postcount=867


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52875727&postcount=579

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=53373597&postcount=53


There are plenty more. While the group may not have been huge, there was definitely a group of us who saw this coming a mile away.

 

[BBKers]

Trades by the Buffoon intending to add offense and depth...

Stats this year say just about everything...

TO COLUMBUS
B Dubinsky 32 GP 6 G 18 A 24 P - 4.200.000 caphit
A Anisimov 38 GP 11 G 8 A 19 P - 3.283.333 caphit
M Gaborik 18 GP 5 G 7 A 12 P - 7.500.000 caphit
T Erixon 2 GP 0 G 0 A 0 P - 900.000 caphit (he has 16 points in 14 games in the AHL so far as well)

TOTAL 90 GP 22 G 33 A 55 P - 0,611 PPG - 15.883.333 caphit

Notes:
Kerby Rychel (which was "our" #19 1st round pick) currently has 45 points in 30 games for Guelph in the OHL

TO NEW YORK RANGERS
D Brassard 38 GP 6 G 13 A 19 P 3.200.000 caphit
R Nash 22 GP 6 G 8 A 14 P 7.800.000 caphit (is on pace for a 52 point 82 game season - his lowest since his rookie year 11 years ago - or costing NYR $150.000 per point which is basically the highest $$ amount for all proven "elite" players in the entire league )
J Moore 37 GP 2 G 5 A 7 P 840.000 caphit
D Dorsett 32 GP 3 G 2 A 5 P 1.633.333 caphit
J Falk 19 GP 0 G 2 A 2 P 975.000 caphit (was acquired with the 6th round pick from Columbus for M Gaborik)

TOTAL 148 GP 17 G 30 A 47 P - 0,318 PPG - 14.448.333 caphit

Notes:
Pavel Buchnevich (chosen #75 - acquired 3rd round pick in the Nash deal) currently has 12 points in 31 games for Cherepovets Severstal in the KHL


Terrible trade
Terrible value
Seriously - see what is possible to get for Rick Nash on the trade market right now - do not snipe at MZA (or propose trading him as if he were the problem with the team in some kind of illogical way) who is on a higher scoring pace than Nash for 1/7th of the money!!! Nash seems to be regressing - get what you can while you can! Seriously

 

[Nightshift]

Nash is damaged goods now. He isn't going anywhere

 

[OverTheCap]

Nash played on some real crappy teams in Columbus and still managed to put up 35-40 goals so "this team around him is bad" sure as hell isn't an excuse. And he's certainly contributing to the team's problems by making poor decisions with the puck that result in turnovers, kind of reminds me of Richards last year.

Maybe it's the concussions, maybe he's complacent living it up in NY, who knows what the reason is, but Nash used to have the ability to dominate games every now and then and I have yet to see him do that this season.

 

[NikC]

Stats this year say just about everything...

TO COLUMBUS
B Dubinsky 32 GP 6 G 18 A 24 P - 4.200.000 caphit
A Anisimov 38 GP 11 G 8 A 19 P - 3.283.333 caphit
M Gaborik 18 GP 5 G 7 A 12 P - 7.500.000 caphit
T Erixon 2 GP 0 G 0 A 0 P - 900.000 caphit (he has 16 points in 14 games in the AHL so far as well)

TOTAL 90 GP 22 G 33 A 55 P - 0,611 PPG - 15.883.333 caphit

Notes:
Kerby Rychel (which was "our" #19 1st round pick) currently has 45 points in 30 games for Guelph in the OHL

TO NEW YORK RANGERS
D Brassard 38 GP 6 G 13 A 19 P 3.200.000 caphit
R Nash 22 GP 6 G 8 A 14 P 7.800.000 caphit (is on pace for a 52 point 82 game season - his lowest since his rookie year 11 years ago - or costing NYR $150.000 per point which is basically the highest $$ amount for all proven "elite" players in the entire league )
J Moore 37 GP 2 G 5 A 7 P 840.000 caphit
D Dorsett 32 GP 3 G 2 A 5 P 1.633.333 caphit
J Falk 19 GP 0 G 2 A 2 P 975.000 caphit (was acquired with the 6th round pick from Columbus for M Gaborik)

TOTAL 148 GP 17 G 30 A 47 P - 0,318 PPG - 14.448.333 caphit

Notes:
Pavel Buchnevich (chosen #75 - acquired 3rd round pick in the Nash deal) currently has 12 points in 31 games for Cherepovets Severstal in the KHL


Terrible trade
Terrible value
Seriously - see what is possible to get for Rick Nash on the trade market right now - do not snipe at MZA (or propose trading him as if he were the problem with the team in some kind of illogical way) who is on a higher scoring pace than Nash for 1/7th of the money!!! Nash seems to be regressing - get what you can while you can! Seriously

The first year a proven 30+ goal scorer struggles (with a recent concussion) means he's regressing and the rangers should start shopping him?

The first year a 5-7" NHL novelty has some relative success means he's a sure thing?

I realize people like the little guy, but this is stupefying.

Go back to posting capgeek salaries, your player analysis is lacking and suspiciously biased....

 

[NikC]

This poll is a joke.

Nash is the only legit top 3 forward on this team, he has a concussion, every other team is targeting him, every game. he sucks now.

Let's have poll to see if we still want him?

 

[BBKers]

The first year a proven 30+ goal scorer struggles (with a recent concussion) means he's regressing and the rangers should start shopping him?

The first year a 5-7" NHL novelty has some relative success means he's a sure thing?

I realize people like the little guy, but this is stupefying.

Go back to posting capgeek salaries, your player analysis is lacking and suspiciously biased....

We can agree to disagree. Zuccarello has been a better player than Nash this year. As had Kreider. Period. "Suspiciously biased" sounds interesting. Thanks for disallowing me to partake in this discussion as it apparently is only for certain chosen people with specific qualifications. Sigh

 

[BBKers]

This poll is a joke.

Nash is the only legit top 3 forward on this team, he has a concussion, every other team is targeting him, every game. he sucks now.

Let's have poll to see if we still want him?

If his concussion is hampering his play and performance right now he should not be playing. Period. If it is not a factor, then we have a problem. Cannot have it both ways

 

[NikC]

We can agree to disagree. Zuccarello has been a better player than Nash this year. As had Kreider. Period. "Suspiciously biased" sounds interesting. Thanks for disallowing me to partake in this discussion as it apparently is only for certain chosen people with specific qualifications. Sigh

The year isn't over, so the die hasn't been cast.

You asserted in your previous post that any argument based on trading MZA was illogical, so I'm responding to your restrictive tone...

sadly you can't see the irony.

 

[BBKers]

The year isn't over, so the die hasn't been cast.

You asserted in your previous post that any argument based on trading MZA was illogical, so I'm responding to your restrictive tone...

sadly you can't see the irony.

I think anyone can be dealt. If Zuccarello (or anyone else for that matter) can bring in someone that proves to be an upgrade in this organization - then do it. I am foremost a Ranger fan. Otoh I think his play and caphit now makes him a real bargain asset. If somebody is willing to overpay - fine - then so be it. But advocating trading him just due to his size or lack if pedigree is just plain stoopid... And then I must imply it is based on other things than than performance or objective sense

 

[NikC]

I think anyone can be dealt. If Zuccarello (or anyone else for that matter) can bring in someone that proves to be an upgrade in this organization - then do it. I am foremost a Ranger fan. Otoh I think his play and caphit now makes him a real bargain asset. If somebody is willing to overpay - fine - then so be it. But advocating trading him just due to his size or lack if pedigree is just plain stoopid... And then I must imply it is based on other things than than performance or objective sense

agreed. I like Zucc.

lay off Ricky.

 

[BBKers]

lay off Ricky.

Hahaha. Will consider it for a couple days

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Prove it.

Alright.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44328583&postcount=55

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44363163&postcount=266

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44385675&postcount=444

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44890833&postcount=717

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44613083&postcount=571

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44618285&postcount=681

 

[Edge]

I was in favor of getting Nash. Even now I can't say we are a better team if the trade never took place.

With that said, it's becoming painfully obvious that Nash is the guy who plays with "the guy" -- as opposed to being "the guy."

 

[True Blue]

With that said, it's becoming painfully obvious that Nash is the guy who plays with "the guy" -- as opposed to being "the guy."

And now what? Cue the "We need to bring someone for Nash to play with and make him go" discussions and rumors. Insert name X in for Nash, and you have practially every big name that Sather has acuired during his tenure. And then trades are made to bring in another expensive player who will let Nash play. THen that player fails. And before you know it, you are starting with the yells that the team canibalizes its youth. And then more band aid trades are made.

This story tends to repeat itself. Sather just could not help himself after 11-12. He had to meddle.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

If his concussion is hampering his play and performance right now he should not be playing. Period. If it is not a factor, then we have a problem. Cannot have it both ways

We always play our injured players. And I agree, if not a factor, we have a problem.

 

[slipknottin]

Im fine with getting rid of anyone with repeated concussions.

Those guys are risky and their careers can end at any time.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

And now what? Cue the "We need to bring someone for Nash to play with and make him go" discussions and rumors. Insert name X in for Nash, and you have practially every big name that Sather has acuired during his tenure. And then trades are made to bring in another expensive player who will let Nash play. THen that player fails. And before you know it, you are starting with the yells that the team canibalizes its youth. And then more band aid trades are made.

This story tends to repeat itself. Sather just could not help himself after 11-12. He had to meddle.

We're going to look back on that trade as the beginning of the another dark ages era.