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Speculation: MSG reclocation?

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Roo Returns said:
I'm going to be blunt here and I'm ready for people to come at me. If you can provide proof that building a new arena is going to screw over the common people, tax payers, and hurt lives, please share links and data. That is very valid and different.

However, let's take the politics completely out of this for a second.....other than nostalgia and habit, why do people give a shit?

Yes I have enjoyed going to the building and there is a lot of history there, but it would be wonderful to have a building with good ice that isn't like five stories above bullshit and that doesn't have Penn Station which is not the most pleasant place to hang out.

You love the design? Ok they can build a similar ceiling. Pennsy Hall can stick around.

Public transportation? It's ten blocks from Grand Central. That's nothing compared to most other arenas.

Why are people so nostalgic for modern MSG? It's a fine building but they've torn down Yankee Stadium, Ebbets Field, and Polo Grounds in the region and everyone was ok. I'd add Shea to the list as well because I had a lot of memories and some really cool stuff went on there but people liked to crap on the municipal cookie cutter designs for some reason.

And MSG is not a good concert venue. The acoustics are terrible. It's more about saying you played there then the actual quality of the show. I've seen concerts all over the world in football stadiums and holes in the wall and not one concert at MSG was ever in my top ten. One in the Baltimore Arena which is a crappy minor league hockey/arena football arena is though.

As a sports venue it has been and is a wonderful place, and I'm grateful for all the times I've been there. But life will go on and a new arena will lead to some really cool stuff.
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current MSG is easy to get to. thats where it starts and stops for most people.

this proposed site would be impossible to get to on game/event nights. also - its not 10 blocks from grand central, its 10 avenues AND 10 blocks north. a lovely 35 minute walk from grand central and penn station.

this will never happen. also - 800 million to build a new MSG, come on. this entire project of moving MSG, building penn, improved public transit to new MSG, etc etc will be well north of $10 billion. where is that money coming from?
 
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lol Rangers/Knicks aren't going anywhere. this isn't just a metro issue, Penn st. connects NJ too. Most ppl in NY aside from the suits can't even afford to see the games.
 
Reading that article I am skeptical. I also would imagine doing all this in NYC means what would be a 3 year project elsewhere being 10 years in Manhattan. I don't like the lack of mass transit over there either. Boo.
 
A few thoughts: realistically, when you total all the expenses (eminent domain, demolition, construction, mass transit improvements), you are probably looking at a 5 billion dollar project (just a guess on my part). Being in NYC, you can expect countless lawsuits that will tie up the project for years. Where is all the money going to come from? Across the country, many municipalities are refusing to pay for stadium/arena construction. NYC certainly has many other infrastructure priorities including extending the 2nd Avenue subway. So, I am quite skeptical that this project can fly. If it does happen, and all lawsuits settled, at a minimum, it is a 5 year project, likely more.

On the other hand: does it need to be done? Realistically the answer is yes. Just a note to say that I was at the last Ranger game at the old MSG and the first game at the current Garden. The current Garden is over 50 years old. Despite the renovation, the "bones" of the building are old, its footprint small. It will not last forever. Eventually, even with the tenderest of loving care, it will need to be replaced.

The Mets and the Yankees have done it best. When Shea needed to be replaced, the constructed CitiField in the parking lot. 50 years from now, when CitiField is old and obsolete, they can construct a new stadium on the old site of Shea, now a parking lot for Citifield.

Same for the Yanks. When the current Stadium needs to be replaced in 50 years, simply build on the site of the original stadium next door. The Mets and Yankees can go on like this for literally centuries, swapping stadium sites.

The Rangers and Knicks don't have that luxury and it is a situation that will need to be faced in the coming decades.
 
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trueblue9441 said:
current MSG is easy to get to. thats where it starts and stops for most people.

this proposed site would be impossible to get to on game/event nights. also - its not 10 blocks from grand central, its 10 avenues AND 10 blocks north. a lovely 35 minute walk from grand central and penn station.

this will never happen. also - 800 million to build a new MSG, come on. this entire project of moving MSG, building penn, improved public transit to new MSG, etc etc will be well north of $10 billion. where is that money coming from?
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Putting MSG in that location would absolutely kill them. If you live on Long Island, why are you going to want to go to 54th street and 11th on a week night and have to take the LIRR back to your home? Not to mention potentially missing trains on the LIRR (or NJ Transit for those in Jersey) that you otherwise would have caught with the current set up. You're taking an hour commute for many outside the city and turning it into an hour and a half or maybe even more on a weeknight which is just a dealbreaker for tons. It's one thing to move MSG to say where Hudson Yards is now as that's 3 avenues you have to walk but this location is a death sentence for the building in terms of getting people there. Just look at how empty Citi Field and Yankee Stadium can be on weeknights with dirt cheap tickets.
 
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NYRFAN218 said:
Putting MSG in that location would absolutely kill them. If you live on Long Island, why are you going to want to go to 54th street and 11th on a week night and have to take the LIRR back to your home? Not to mention potentially missing trains on the LIRR (or NJ Transit for those in Jersey) that you otherwise would have caught with the current set up. You're taking an hour commute for many outside the city and turning it into an hour and a half or maybe even more on a weeknight which is just a dealbreaker for tons. It's one thing to move MSG to say where Hudson Yards is now as that's 3 avenues you have to walk but this location is a death sentence for the building in terms of getting people there. Just look at how empty Citi Field and Yankee Stadium can be on weeknights with dirt cheap tickets.
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You know, despite all of that and provided the mass transit issue is addressed, the Rangers are going to be just as able to sell out games in that location as they are right now. 20k for 41 dates is a lot different than 40-50k for 81. Every fan that would have a problem with the setup will be able to be replaced with one that doesn't.
 
Tawnos said:
You know, despite all of that and provided the mass transit issue is addressed, the Rangers are going to be just as able to sell out games in that location as they are right now. 20k for 41 dates is a lot different than 40-50k for 81. Every fan that would have a problem with the setup will be able to be replaced with one that doesn't.
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The Rangers haven't sold out routinely in years now. That's been a problem dating back to 17-18 with how high they jacked up ticket prices and is only being made worse during the pandemic. They're more in the ballpark of 16-17K in recent years than 18ish and a sellout and that's with having the best location you possibly could. Even the Knicks who are more popular in the city don't sell out or sometimes come close to it unless a big name is coming to town. And I only drew the Yankees/Mets comparison because those teams are way more popular with parks in more obscure locations. Both of those teams draw miserable numbers on weeknights.
 
Any relocation would seemingly have to put them within a couple blocks of the subway. This proposed location seems like a fail.
 
Mass transportation is the key to the whole situation and there simply is no way to make a westside stadium at the proposed location, doable. I've seen estimates that the first phase of the second avenue subway cost 2.5 billions dollars per mile (3 stations, 8+ miles) and the proposed next phase 3.5 billion dollars per mile.

You need subway access as well as being be able to come in from Westchester, Jersey, the Island, w/o driving.

People movers don't make it, bus lines don't make it. Now they can go ahead with the project w/o improving mass transit and fans will just have to deal with it. But mass transit must be addressed.
 
NYRFAN218 said:
The Rangers haven't sold out routinely in years now. That's been a problem dating back to 17-18 with how high they jacked up ticket prices and is only being made worse during the pandemic. They're more in the ballpark of 16-17K in recent years than 18ish and a sellout and that's with having the best location you possibly could. Even the Knicks who are more popular in the city don't sell out or sometimes come close to it unless a big name is coming to town. And I only drew the Yankees/Mets comparison because those teams are way more popular with parks in more obscure locations. Both of those teams draw miserable numbers on weeknights.
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In reality, they've been over 95% capacity every season until this one and we know why that is. Not unexpected in the modern entertainment market when a team is rebuilding, it's been happening in all sports even in markets that used to sell out every single game. This is a change from previous decades. 17-18 was over 99% capacity with a quarter of the season played after the letter. And to be clear, I was talking about their ability to sell out games, not whether or not they do. In a non-pandemic year where the Rangers are competitive, they're going to sell-out every game whether they're in their current location or they're in this proposed one.

Baseball has no place in this conversation, no matter where the stadiums are. The median capacity for MLB is like 60-70% in normal times. For the NHL it's over 95%. Same for the NBA and the NFL.
 
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Don't negate the fact that despite the renovation, MSG is old, the oldest arena in the league. Eventually something will need to be done even if it is not this pie-in-the-sky plan. Plus there's all the other tax issues involving the Dolans.

One factor for keeping MSG where it is that in not talked about often: The Rangers are a very attractive franchise for almost all free agents. Partly because they treat their players first class, partly because (for Canadians) it is an Original Six franchise, partly because, for European players, NYC is a cosmopolitan city.

But a big attraction is the arena location. It is not on the outskirts of the city, not in an outer borough, not in a suburban parking lot. It is at the heart of midtown Manhattan, near the Empire State Building, etc. There is a dynamism too, not only NYC as a whole, but to midtown, that is hard to quantify but no doubt there. Players can feel that energy. Moving to the far west side would negate a part of that attraction.
 
Roo Returns said:
I'm going to be blunt here and I'm ready for people to come at me. If you can provide proof that building a new arena is going to screw over the common people, tax payers, and hurt lives, please share links and data. That is very valid and different.
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The article basically says that federal government money from the infrastructure bill is going to be used to build the new MSG. If that's the case expect to see 100 new stadiums and arenas built while the country's roads bridges and tunnels continue to rot.
 
sbjnyc said:
The article basically says that federal government money from the infrastructure bill is going to be used to build the new MSG. If that's the case expect to see 100 new stadiums and arenas built while the country's roads bridges and tunnels continue to rot.
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yeah thats outrageous. if they are getting a shit ton of federal money for infrastructure, it better go to infrastructure and not replacing a new (renovated) hockey arena.
 
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sbjnyc said:
The article basically says that federal government money from the infrastructure bill is going to be used to build the new MSG. If that's the case expect to see 100 new stadiums and arenas built while the country's roads bridges and tunnels continue to rot.
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No, not at all. Not every team has their arena on land that worth an eminent domain process over. Is MSG and TD Garden the only arenas on top of a train station?

MSG has leverage that no one else has.
 
noupf said:
Yea, thats what i thought. By my quick math, it looks like 4 blocks west and about 20 blocks north..............yea, thats convenient for almost............ nobody.

Great plan. I'd expect nothing less from the stellar leadership group in the great state of New York.

Bravo, bravo.
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I work 2 blocks away. This would actually be perfect for me and super inconvenient for everyone else.
 
Kane One said:
Yeah. The cost of the eminent domain should be part of the cost of the Penn Station project.
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It sounds a bit to me like eminent domain will end up bypassed, if this ever comes into being. Like they're going to exchange funding the majority of the arena construction costs for Dolan giving up the property and air rights.
 
This will cost 2-3x what they estimate and for what? A pretty Penn Station?

Build it across the street, problem solved
 
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