More Babcock Shenanigans

[dirtydanglez]

Just read about the stuff he did to Franzen. He wasn't very liked in the Detroit locker room either.

was that in kadri's book or is it elsewhere?

 

[joestevens29]

Isn’t this all old news

 

[Bounces R Way]

what did that little rascal do now

 

[NyQuil]

Isn’t this all old news

I missed some of it.

Kadri's book just came out which is why it's come up again.

 

[Devilsfan2326]

Yeah, it appears to be an attempt at 4D chess, but I struggled with that theory as well simply because it shows a complete disconnect with what makes current hockey player tick.

Agree, just what does make them tick though?

 

[JianYang]

Agree, just what does make them tick though?

If you're going to give them the tough love, you have to give it to them clear and direct.

Other guys just need to hear positive things to get them out of whatever is affecting them.

As a coach, you have to figure out which button to push depending on the player's personality, but you can't just spam all the buttons like Keenan used to do, or Babcock seemingly has done.

 

[Mike C]

I bet you Mike is a big fan of the Saw movies.

Yes sir!

Jigsaw will be back in Saw XI next September!!

 

[MoneyManny]

Babcock puts a hockey stick in the middle of the room and the man that comes out of it makes the team.

 

[Devilsfan2326]

If you're going to give them the tough love, you have to give it to them clear and direct.

Other guys just need to hear positive things to get them out of whatever is affecting them.

As a coach, you have to figure out which button to push depending on the player's personality, but you can't just spam all the buttons like Keenan used to do, or Babcock seemingly has done.

I remember this with Adam Larsson. The coach just did not understand that benching him for every tiny mistake was destroying his confidence. He started to thrive under different coaches. Tough love is so often off the mark, the person often just needs a little thoughtfulness.

I think a lot of people misconstrue criticism as tough love. The true meaning of tough love is just honesty, and not an honest opinion, but an honest fact. The honest opinions are so often counterproductive because nobody knows the person as well as they know themselves. To use the person as a punching bag and then tell them it's love is wrong.

Shame can be effective in the short-term with short-fuse types of players with big egos who get triggered easily. For calmer guys it's just wrong. You don't give tough love to players who are already beating themselves up. That's horribly dumb.

Some coaches treat the guys like military, but most of the players just aren't cut out for that. The coaching style maybe lost its overall effectiveness in the modern age, with the reduction in hitting and overall violence, and has moved into a niche position for certain players only. They're just not angry enough to respond to that and can't really take it out on other players on the ice anymore.

Thinking about it, his whole approach would probably boost hitting, fighting, more aggressive type hockey player traits. More undisciplined too as a downside. But wouldn't make them play smarter or play with more skill or poise at all. So the coaching style degraded big time in the modern era. There are a lot of downsides to purposely frustrating players.

Take a guy like Keller, Hughes, Zegras, Karlsson, Panarin, Huberdeau, Skinner, that coaching style wouldn't do anything for them. They're not cut out for it. More for Coleman, Dahlin, Miller, Benn, Bertuzzi, Scheifele, Perron, and those types.

 

[ffh]

Small price to pay to be a good playoff team.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Did he also ever ask his own kids to rank their extended family members then bring it up during a Christmas family gathering?

 

[57special]

Except these stories do not start with toronto, they were there back when modano was reaching 1500 games. And Babcock decided to bench him with only 4 games left that made modano miss the milestone by 1 game.

I forgot that one!

 

[Mrfenn92]

He’s a scumbag

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The question is why aren’t the trainers ripping on the lazy ones in the gym in the first place?

How many guys can make it to the NHL while being lazy in the gym? If there were some, why would they need to be ripped by trainers?

- Wouldn’t their on-ice performance be the primary indicator of laziness?

 

[Devilsfan2326]

Did he also ever ask his own kids to rank their extended family members then bring it up during a Christmas family gathering?

If he parents like he coaches... wonder how drill sergeants are like at family gatherings? Make a personality switch?

 

[mel]

Except these stories do not start with toronto, they were there back when modano was reaching 1500 games. And Babcock decided to bench him with only 4 games left that made modano miss the milestone by 1 game.

Do any Detroit fans know what his issue was with Modano? Was it talked about at all?

 

[SirKillalot]

All of this is old stuff. He did things how he saw them or learned them while himself was younger.
Worst thing he did was bully some people and mind games to get reactions to trigger players taking actions.

He was being tough on players. Most is storms in water glasses and some is pushing things too far or intentionally or unintentionally making mistakes.

Same as the thing in Columbus, just a dumb thing overall. He to my understanding was trying to learn more personal things about the players to connect with them and some took offense or didn't dare to say I'm not comfortable with it. Could have been solved different.

 

[SirKillalot]

Do any Detroit fans know what his issue was with Modano? Was it talked about at all?

I don't know if anything else has come out, but as far as I've read/seen it was only based on performances. Modano was a shell of him former self and had a fairly bad year. I'd say there were sports reasons to scratch him, personally wouldn't have done it but idk if Babcock was aware he was so close to 1500 matches before after.

You could say its pro sports, be good enough or sit and watch and I can't really say its the wrong thing to do, and then from a nostalgic point of view, Modano did enough in his career to be given the leverage of playing and getting to 1500 as a gesture as well so.

 

[kevsh]

Kadri was on Kyper & Bourne this week and did point out that despite these very bad examples he still respected Babcock and gave him credit for getting Kadri's career going. (Paraphrasing as I was working with this in the background so didn't hang on every word)

About 24 minutes in Kadri joins the show.


To be clear, I'm not defending Babcock in any way but just clarifying there was some good to go with the bad according to the guy that wrote the book OP is quoting from.

 

[Quinning]

All of this is old stuff. He did things how he saw them or learned them while himself was younger.
Worst thing he did was bully some people and mind games to get reactions to trigger players taking actions.

He was being tough on players. Most is storms in water glasses and some is pushing things too far or intentionally or unintentionally making mistakes.

Same as the thing in Columbus, just a dumb thing overall. He to my understanding was trying to learn more personal things about the players to connect with them and some took offense or didn't dare to say I'm not comfortable with it. Could have been solved different.

This is the excuse people like Babcock have made for generations: "Well it's just how it was when I was younger, now it's my turn"

Perpetuating a cycle of abuse just because you refuse to seek help for your own trauma does not make you infallible.

 

[SirKillalot]

This is the excuse people like Babcock have made for generations: "Well it's just how it was when I was younger, now it's my turn"

Perpetuating a cycle of abuse just because you refuse to seek help for your own trauma does not make you infallible.

Not saying he was, but there is some exaggerations going on to his style. He wasn't just a tyrant 24/7 like certain people want to push as an agenda. Even Zetterberg and Lidstrom said he could be hard on people. Zetterberg said in some interview he also got into verbal fights with him at times.
Both also said they didn't notice the thing about Franzen so as prominent players and Swedish as well it wasn't as big thing as some people say. Now I'm not saying Franzen didn't perceive it as such at some point, but it seems it was some other factors involved as well enhancing it overall, as those others haven't really taken notice of it that it was more than with others.

Everyone said he could coach well.
But yeah, all agree that personal management skills there were some let's say wrong points of view on how he did things to try getting the results. On different occasions it was for sure the wrong way to go about it.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If he parents like he coaches... wonder how drill sergeants are like at family gatherings? Make a personality switch?

I don't know how his family tolerates him.

 

[Nikki Potnick]

Babcock puts a hockey stick in the middle of the room and the man that comes out of it makes the team.

Babs:

 

[Chips]

I’m pretty sure all the successful coaches have a bunch of little mind games they play with their group. I seem to remember that in Ken Dryden’s “The Game” he touched on some of the stuff Bowman would do.

This seems really low character though.

Jon Cooper is one of the best modern coaches (rare longevity with the room, tons of finals and conference finals appearances on top of great seasons over 10+ years), and he is the polar opposite of this.


Watch any behind the scenes stuff or the spitten chiclets interview, he seems like the most laid back, inspired guys. Constantly gives off goofy dad energy lol


I think it’s a generational thing rather than a success thing. I’m sure the bad coaches in those days did the same stuff.

 

[Barrie22]

I don't know if anything else has come out, but as far as I've read/seen it was only based on performances. Modano was a shell of him former self and had a fairly bad year. I'd say there were sports reasons to scratch him, personally wouldn't have done it but idk if Babcock was aware he was so close to 1500 matches before after.

You could say its pro sports, be good enough or sit and watch and I can't really say its the wrong thing to do, and then from a nostalgic point of view, Modano did enough in his career to be given the leverage of playing and getting to 1500 as a gesture as well so.

It was because modano and the training staff were talking about the 1500th game and it being something modano wanted. Babcock was said to say you were brought here for a stanley cup not 1500 games.