HF Habs: Montreal Canadiens Hockey Ops - Part 3

[Miller Time]

You’re dancing around my argument.
Those players had IQ , they could play in the nhl .
Bennet saw ice time in the PLAYOFFS

Newhook saw ice time in the PLAYOFFS on a cup winning team, does that mean he has IQ?

What about Lomberg?

To say that your argument is poor is an understatement. Playing in the playoffs is not the outcome of, nor a litmus test, of IQ... What an odd mistake to make.

Montour was trade for 1st round pick, because he was actually good.

Panthers acquire D Montour from Sabres for pick

Brandon Montour, who is in the last year of a contract that pays him $3.85 million annually, is the third player traded by the Sabres ahead of Monday's NHL trade deadline.

www.espn.com

I mention hockey IQ because your purposely ignoring it

Ignoring what? An excersice in shifting goal posts?

Barron is ahead of the curve progression-wise, compared to professional hockey players playing defense in his age cohort. You took issue with that statement, I clarified, you then started making some random comments about hockey IQ.

Barron is a smart hockey player insofar as reading the play and moving the puck. He has yet to be able to translate that competency to consistent performance impact because he struggles in areas of decision making under pressure and playing through physical play. Hockey IQ, which is a nebulous term to begin with, does not in itself equate to NHL performance success.

I think you are confused about the difference between competency & performance.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Baron's played like 100 games in the NHL. His career hasn't even begun yet. I don't see the rush to dump him. Not married to him but why do we have to hurry up and get rid of a young RD who skates well and has decent size? What some may see as 'low IQ' could simply be a young player who's figuring out the game.

I remember when we had Brett Kulak here. I couldn't stand the guy. Absolutely terrible for us. But he's turned out to be a half decent serviceable blueliner. It just took some time for him to mature. And he didn't have half the potential that Baron does.

This is a wasted year anyway. We're not making the playoffs. We've got 60 games left. Why not use it to evaluate what we have? If by the end of the year we feel like he's not a fit, we can always move him then.

 

[Theodore450]

Newhook saw ice time in the PLAYOFFS on a cup winning team, does that mean he has IQ?

What about Lomberg?

To say that your argument is poor is an understatement. Playing in the playoffs is not the outcome of, nor a litmus test, of IQ... What an odd mistake to make.

Panthers acquire D Montour from Sabres for pick

Brandon Montour, who is in the last year of a contract that pays him $3.85 million annually, is the third player traded by the Sabres ahead of Monday's NHL trade deadline.

www.espn.com

Ignoring what? An excersice in shifting goal posts?

Barron is ahead of the curve progression-wise, compared to professional hockey players playing defense in his age cohort. You took issue with that statement, I clarified, you then started making some random comments about hockey IQ.

Barron is a smart hockey player insofar as reading the play and moving the puck. He has yet to be able to translate that competency to consistent performance impact because he struggles in areas of decision making under pressure and playing through physical play. Hockey IQ, which is a nebulous term to begin with, does not in itself equate to NHL performance success.

I think you are confused about the difference between competency & performance.

I’m talking about Barron and you bring up Lomberg, you bring up newhook (idk ), you bring up Montour( and double down on him not being traded BY Anaheim TO Buffalo)

He’s not ahead of any curb.
He’s a player who is being spoon fed minutes and has zero hockey IQ.
This is why he will never be a quality NHL player.

Lmao to the “ he’s a smart player because he can move the puck”lmaooooooo


The only one moving goal post is you when you’re bringing up newhook playing in the playoffs to suddenly make Barron look like he has hockey Iq.
Honestly dude what are you even arguing about. The guy is constantly behind the play

Baron's played like 100 games in the NHL. His career hasn't even begun yet. I don't see the rush to dump him. Not married to him but why do we have to hurry up and get rid of a young RD who skates well and has decent size? What some may see as 'low IQ' could simply be a young player who's figuring out the game.

I remember when we had Brett Kulak here. I couldn't stand the guy. Absolutely terrible for us. But he's turned out to be a half decent serviceable blueliner. It just took some time for him to mature. And he didn't have half the potential that Baron does.

This is a wasted year anyway. We're not making the playoffs. We've got 60 games left. Why not use it to evaluate what we have? If by the end of the year we feel like he's not a fit, we can always move him then.

Kulak was and is a much better player. I wish Barron can be half the player

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Kulak was and is a much better player. I wish Barron can be half the player

I think he'll be a much better player than Kulak. But he needs time to develop just like Kulak did. 100 games is nothing.

 

[Theodore450]

I think he'll be a much better player than Kulak. But he needs time to develop just like Kulak did. 100 games is nothing.

I hope your right, but I think kulak was a much smarter player with better skating

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I hope your right, but I think kulak was a much smarter player with better skating

30 points in his first 100 games. He's significantly ahead of where Kulak was.

 

[Theodore450]

30 points in his first 100 games. He's significantly ahead of where Kulak was.

The nhl is also a significantly higher scoring place now…. Keep in mind the habs deploy a “don’t play defence and attack method”

His point total can’t be used an evaluator of the better player ….

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The nhl is also a significantly higher scoring place now…. Keep in mind the habs deploy a “don’t play defence and attack method”

His point total can’t be used an evaluator of the better player ….

He put up the same number of points last year in about half the games and did it on a worse team. Kulak had 16 points in 82 games with the Oilers. Baron had 16 in 48 with the Canadiens. He's already shown he can outproduce at around double the rate Kulak can while on a worse team and a significantly younger age.

That being said, he's struggled this year. But so has every player on our roster outside of a handful of guys. Imagine if Baron were on Edmonton... you think his point totals wouldn't go up?

He's a very young blueliner. He skates well, has a killer shot and has size. He also plays on the right side. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him take off if we dealt him somewhere else and then we'd never hear the end of how we f***ed up letting him go.

There's no harm in giving him some time here to show what he can do. If the team turns around, I'm sure he'll turn around with it.

 

[morhilane]

That being said, he's struggled this year.

I feel like he's not skating as fast as the previous years. This impact his ability to pinch and he's not skating with the puck as much, but then the majority of the players aren't so I think that has something to do with coaching.

 

[Theodore450]

He put up the same number of points last year in about half the games and did it on a worse team. Kulak had 16 points in 82 games with the Oilers. Baron had 16 in 48 with the Canadiens. He's already shown he can outproduce at around double the rate Kulak can while on a worse team and a significantly younger age.

That being said, he's struggled this year. But so has every player on our roster outside of a handful of guys. Imagine if Baron were on Edmonton... you think his point totals wouldn't go up?

He's a very young blueliner. He skates well, has a killer shot and has size. He also plays on the right side. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him take off if we dealt him somewhere else and then we'd never hear the end of how we f***ed up letting him go.

There's no harm in giving him some time here to show what he can do. If the team turns around, I'm sure he'll turn around with it.

Barron would be waived on the oilers. No time to waste on a guy that can’t defend.
Nobody is arguing trading for him. He has zero value you have to keep him this year.
But next year he should be off the roster and have someone that can actually play

You're wrong.. Theodore450 thinks he's bad so you just have to cut your losses immediately.

Sorry im not a cheerleader

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I feel like he's not skating as fast as the previous years. This impact his ability to pinch and he's not skating with the puck as much, but then the majority of the players aren't so I think that has something to do with coaching.

I don't know. The whole team is off. Maybe it's coaching, maybe it's something else. But it's almost like the whole team caught the flu.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Barron would be waived on the oilers. No time to waste on a guy that can’t defend.

Brett Kulak couldn't defend for his life when he was with us. I absolutely hated the guy. He was personally responsible for at least 1000 goals against here. I'm kidding, but he was really bad man.

Nobody is arguing trading for him. He has zero value you have to keep him this year.
But next year he should be off the roster and have someone that can actually play


Sorry im not a cheerleader

You don't need to be a cheerleader to see that Baron has struggled. I don't think anyone will disagree with you. And if we got a fair offer, then sure I think we'd be open to it. But understand that this guy has a fair bit of upside. What he is now is not what he'll be down the road. And if you just dump him I think you'll really regret it later.

 

[LaP]

Kulak was and is a much better player. I wish Barron can be half the player

This is Kulak at 22-23 years old (2016-2017)

22 AHL games 10 points +7
21 NHL games 3 points -3

This is Kulak in his season that will be the same as Barron's next season (2017-2018)

71 NHL games 8 points -3

He was waived twice the following year and WAS NOT claimed twice before being traded to Montreal for nothing (Rinat Valiev and Matt Taormina) at the start of the 2018-2019 season. He was traded to us as a AHL player after clearing waiver and started in the AHL with Laval when he was 24 (almost 25). I'm sorry here but saying Kulak at the same age as Barron was better is ludicrous at the very very very best. If you could see that Kulak at 23 was this good you should apply for a NHL GM's job cause you are much better than all NHL GM who all did not claim Kulak on waiver TWICE.

 

[ReHabs]

The nhl is also a significantly higher scoring place now…. Keep in mind the habs deploy a “don’t play defence and attack method”

His point total can’t be used an evaluator of the better player ….

When I was critical of Slafkovsky’s performance, I said he’s being rushed and underperforming. I was told that I should stop staring at the box score and hockeydb.

Now we are told that points is what matters when tracking a player’s development. Forget your lying eyes, Barron isn’t struggling if you compare him to waiver-tier players. Hughes did nothing wrong! He’s just like Bergevin: anyone criticizing any move is simply a bad and impatient fan!

 

[Theodore450]

Brett Kulak couldn't defend for his life when he was with us. I absolutely hated the guy. He was personally responsible for at least 1000 goals against here. I'm kidding, but he was really bad man.

You don't need to be a cheerleader to see that Baron has struggled. I don't think anyone will disagree with you. And if we got a fair offer, then sure I think we'd be open to it. But understand that this guy has a fair bit of upside. What he is now is not what he'll be down the road. And if you just dump him I think you'll really regret it later.

Listen Kulak would have those games where you just couldn’t understand what he was doing. So I understand the PTSD there.

I agree completely with keeping Barron, at no point did I propose trading him, unless it was a bust for bust situation.
I just don’t see a role for him if he can’t defend. I also don’t want us to pass on other better options because we still wanna wait and see. There’s an opportunity cost to everything. Could he be better under another coach ? I think so, as we have a bottom 4 coach.
But I just don’t see the coach going before the player. I’m a habs fan first so I want to see him succeed but it doesn’t look like it’s gonna happen and I’m still salty over the trade in the first place.


We can argue about our POV on the player, but it won’t matter. It’s up to the player to figure it out

This is Kulak at 22-23 years old (2016-2017)

22 AHL games 10 points +7
21 NHL games 3 points -3

This is Kulak in his season that will be the same as Barron's next season (2017-2018)

71 NHL games 8 points -3

He was waived twice the following year and WAS NOT claimed twice before being traded to Montreal for nothing (Rinat Valiev and Matt Taormina) at the start of the 2018-2019 season. He was traded to us as a AHL player after clearing waiver and started in the AHL with Laval when he was 24 (almost 25). I'm sorry here but saying Kulak at the same age as Barron was better is ludicrous at the very very very best. If you could see that Kulak at 23 was this good you should apply for a NHL GM's job cause you are much better than all NHL GM who all did not claim Kulak on waiver TWICE.

I know right? I should

 

[therocket9]

Sure.
But to suggest a player that makes that kind of progression hasn't progressed is dumb.

Wether said progression is enough to be an asset worth keeping is a completely different point.


Then you know about that guy Forsling... You know, the one that had progressed LESS than Barron at the same age.


See Forsling, Gustav.
Also Bennett, Sam.
Also Montour, Brandon.
Also Vaerheage, Carter.

For a fan of the Panthers, a team that won a cup by collecting players in their mid 20's that were discarded or undervalued by their former teams, only to become core contributors on their cup winning run, you seem poorly informed on what the typical player progression curve actually looks like.


So are the Panthers a bad organization because they collected a bunch of players like Barron on their way to a cup

Panthers obviously have great pro scouting ....something Montreal has been terrible at for decades.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Listen Kulak would have those games where you just couldn’t understand what he was doing. So I understand the PTSD there.

I agree completely with keeping Barron, at no point did I propose trading him, unless it was a bust for bust situation.
I just don’t see a role for him if he can’t defend. I also don’t want us to pass on other better options because we still wanna wait and see. There’s an opportunity cost to everything. Could he be better under another coach ? I think so, as we have a bottom 4 coach.
But I just don’t see the coach going before the player. I’m a habs fan first so I want to see him succeed but it doesn’t look like it’s gonna happen and I’m still salty over the trade in the first place.


We can argue about our POV on the player, but it won’t matter. It’s up to the player to figure it out

Right but it's up to the team to be patient enough to let him figure it out. It's up to the team to play him enough to figure it out.

 

[The Real Timo]

I hope your right, but I think kulak was a much smarter player with better skating

Brett Kulak was a legend. I will take him over Matheson every day of a week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Theodore450]

Brett Kulak was a legend. I will take him over Matheson every day of a week and twice on Sunday.

I’d take Barron over Matheson.
He’s lowkey the exemplar of bad defence on the team

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When I was critical of Slafkovsky’s performance, I said he’s being rushed and underperforming. I was told that I should stop staring at the box score and hockeydb

No, you were told that it was stupid to forecast a guy's career based on 20 games. And yet you continued to do it ad nauseum to the point where it was cartoonish.

.

Now we are told that points is what matters when tracking a player’s development. Forget your lying eyes, Barron isn’t struggling if you compare him to waiver-tier players. Hughes did nothing wrong! He’s just like Bergevin: anyone criticizing any move is simply a bad and impatient fan!

You need to stop man. Seriously. Either have an honest discussion or move on.

 

[LaP]

Panthers obviously have great pro scouting ....something Montreal has been terrible at for decades.

Can't argue with a fact.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Brett Kulak was a legend. I will take him over Matheson every day of a week and twice on Sunday.

I loathed him.

But he was a young guy figuring it out. It wasn't his fault that our GM brought him in with guys like Schlemko and Alzner and a whole pile of nobodies to defend. It was just an awful group.

 

[Skip Bayless]

I’d take Barron over Matheson.
He’s lowkey the exemplar of bad defence on the team

I like Barron better as well, because at least Barron plays less and allows a righty to play on his side.

 

[The Real Timo]

I like Barron better as well, because at least Barron plays less.

Hah... great point.

 

[Miller Time]

I’m talking about Barron and you bring up Lomberg, you bring up newhook (idk ), you bring up Montour( and double down on him not being traded BY Anaheim TO Buffalo)

? Can't keep up with all your pivots, sorry.

He’s not ahead of any curb.

He is. No middle ground to be found here.

He’s a player who is being spoon fed minutes and has zero hockey IQ.

Completely false.

This is why he will never be a quality NHL player.

An opinion. Your certainty is not very well grounded.

Lmao to the “ he’s a smart player because he can move the puck”lmaooooooo

Nope, you misunderstood.

The only one moving goal post is you when you’re bringing up newhook playing in the playoffs to suddenly make Barron look like he has hockey Iq.
Honestly dude what are you even arguing about. The guy is constantly behind the play

You brought up playing in the PLAYOFFS...

Not sure why you are struggling to follow your own points, as poor as they may be.

Being "behind the play" can be caused by many things. You've made zero case as to why you think it's reflective of "low IQ".

Bad assessment.

Kulak was and is a much better player. I wish Barron can be half the player

And yet Another example of a player that was less established and lower impact than Barron at the same age...