Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Leafsfan74]

How can you justify giving him a big extension if the Leafs drop this series against Boston? You can't. The core should be over if they lose.

Should have been over after the loss to Montreal. No serious winning franchise in ANY major sport has held onto the same 4 or 5 key players without a ring. I challenge anyone to name one in any sport.

This is especially true in the Cap Era. Their salaries, through no fault of their own really; have handcuffed the team.

Unfortunately MLSE is known as a club house. Whats old is new again.

 

[Antropovsky]

Tavares was not the right fit. Hes not a guy that leads a team and this team needed a guy that commanded the room. You want to spend that money go find a guy that’s won something or led a group to a Stanley Cup. We saw what happened when he left NYI. All of a sudden they’re contending for Cups in back to back years.

$11 mil could have been spent in better ways. Instead of a guy that wasn’t a PPG player and made the playoffs once.

I've always said that Tavares isn't captain material. And always said Matthews should've been the captain.

Tavares is fine in a supporting role. Again, 11 million for a 27 year old Hart finalist, center, former #1 pick is a no brainer. Malkin isn't the most talkative guy but he worked out just fine in Pittsburgh in support of Crosby.

The other strange part of Toronto it's like they always wanted Marner and Matthew's to feel equal to each other or didnt want to hurt Marners feelings. Matthews sharing an A with Marner after as many years he has in the league and all his accolades, is child stuff. Quit treating these men like babies.

 

[Antropovsky]

People are moaning about marner, matthews, nylander

Yes they all need to be better come playoffs and yes they all took more than any comparable while not being as good.

Still they are in their primes, have had elite reg seasons and have another 3-4 years where they can be top 3 players for a contending team

The # 1 culprit if we lose will be John Tavares if he doesnt up his game come playoffs.

He provides negative value for his hit, has lowest upside of the big 4, and is past the stage he is a top 5 player on a cup winner.

I wouldnt let Marner walk just to send a message if we lose

If marner plays good r1 and tavares doesnt, you extend marner, suffer another year of JT and then use that 11M capspace wisely to fix issues on the team

Marner needs 8 or 9 pts in this round and needs to avoid small mental mistakes.

Hes a borderline top 5 winger this year and since 2019 is probably only worse than Kuch, Pasta, Rantanen for wingers (same tier as Panarin, Kaprizov,)

The big 3 now that 2 of 3 are locked at huge deals, it doesnt make sense to cut bait with Marner the 2nd best of the 3. Cut bait with the oldest and least valuable player from the 11M + group

Except Tavares had lots of slot shots. Which is a recipe for success. Of all Leaf players, he was the one who could say he was unlucky (according to the article that was written doing a deep analysis on last year's Leafs forwards).

Marner... primarily 40' foot shots. He had the worst slot shots on the entire team by a margin of 10% worse then the next guy.

Think about that.... your 11 million dollar forward taking primarily defenseman distance shots.

That's ridiculous and 9/10 a recipe for failure. Also, evidence that he doesnt go to dirty areas (if you couldnt tell by watching it live).

Most of the NHLs best players will play in dirty areas...and most elite players have better shots and speed than Marner. Marners lack of speed and shot velocity makes it even more difficult for him to be successful without going to dirty areas.

 

[JL17]

I've always said that Tavares isn't captain material. And always said Matthews should've been the captain.

Tavares is fine in a supporting role. Again, 11 million for a 27 year old Hart finalist, center, former #1 pick is a no brainer. Malkin isn't the most talkative guy but he worked out just fine in Pittsburgh in support of Crosby.

The other strange part of Toronto it's like they always wanted Marner and Matthew's to feel equal to each other or didnt want to hurt Marners feelings. Matthews sharing an A with Marner after as many years he has in the league and all his accolades, is child stuff. Quit treating these men like babies.

Again 11 mil for a finalist not a winner. Taylor Hall didn’t even get that and he carried NJ to the playoffs. 11 mil for a guy that wasn’t PPG doesnt kill penalties didn’t lead his team to anything is a bad contract.

Malkin and Tavares isn’t a good comparison. Malkin took care of business when Sid was injured. He’s got the trophies to back it up. Malkin many times has been vocal on the bench and isn’t afraid of telling truth and still isn’t learning lessons.

 

[Aashir]

I've always said that Tavares isn't captain material. And always said Matthews should've been the captain.

Tavares is fine in a supporting role. Again, 11 million for a 27 year old Hart finalist, center, former #1 pick is a no brainer. Malkin isn't the most talkative guy but he worked out just fine in Pittsburgh in support of Crosby.

The other strange part of Toronto it's like they always wanted Marner and Matthew's to feel equal to each other or didnt want to hurt Marners feelings. Matthews sharing an A with Marner after as many years he has in the league and all his accolades, is child stuff. Quit treating these men like babies.

33 year old malkin was better than any iteration of tavares against any competition. That malkin was better than any player not named matthews on our team. Comparing those two players especially in their prime is disgusting. I'd take kadri over him for most years tavares was on this team

tavares never was, has not, and never will provide 11m dollar value. As a supporting piece he should be on 8-9m.

At least Marner in the regular season easily gives you 11m dollar value. Moreover he has had 1-2 superstar level playoff series's for us, Tavares's absolute best he was our 3-6th best player and scored a flukey series winner.

the biggest problem is having tavares on this team at his caphit

 

[Antropovsky]

Again 11 mil for a finalist not a winner. Taylor Hall didn’t even get that and he carried NJ to the playoffs. 11 mil for a guy that wasn’t PPG doesnt kill penalties didn’t lead his team to anything is a bad contract.

Malkin and Tavares isn’t a good comparison. Malkin took care of business when Sid was injured. He’s got the trophies to back it up. Malkin many times has been vocal on the bench and isn’t afraid of telling truth and still isn’t learning lessons.

Hall isn't a center and didn't have sustained history of production that Tavares does/did.

 

[JL17]

Hall isn't a center and didn't have sustained history of production that Tavares does/did.

He won the Hart wasn’t a finalist. But nobody would give him that amount of money. Tavares production wasn’t exactly something to write home about.

 

[hamzarocks]

Except Tavares had lots of slot shots. Which is a recipe for success. Of all Leaf players, he was the one who could say he was unlucky (according to the article that was written doing a deep analysis on last year's Leafs forwards).

Marner... primarily 40' foot shots. He had the worst slot shots on the entire team by a margin of 10% worse then the next guy.

Think about that.... your 11 million dollar forward taking primarily defenseman distance shots.

That's ridiculous and 9/10 a recipe for failure. Also, evidence that he doesnt go to dirty areas (if you couldnt tell by watching it live).

Most of the NHLs best players will play in dirty areas...and most elite players have better shots and speed than Marner. Marners lack of speed and shot velocity makes it even more difficult for him to be successful without going to dirty areas.

Tavares has seen his production fall of this year in the reg season

In the playoffs over a 30+ game sample size he has produced only 22 pts or ~60 pt pace

Tavares routinely misses high danger slot chances.

Game 5 vs CBJ rielly sets him up for a tap in and he hits the post

Game 2 vs Flordia last year, nylander sets him up twice in front of the net and he misses both times

Tavares is a poor shooter under high pressure and he isnt a good finisher in the playoffs. He has missed many chances and doesnt generate many in return for his wingers like Marner can still do if hes having a poor game.

If Marner produces, then his shot selection is irrelevent. We need production that is all. Not for him to be jamming in greasy goals or driving the puck to the net like a PF

 

[Antropovsky]

He won the Hart wasn’t a finalist. But nobody would give him that amount of money. Tavares production wasn’t exactly something to write home about.

Actually he won the Hart while still having two years left on his contract. He then had reconstructive knee surgery the following year, and played not nearly to the same level of his Hart season.

So obviously very good reason why he never was offered 11 million, two years, 1 knee constructive surgery and a disappointing season after his Hart trophy... on top of him not being a center and the 93 point season being mote of an anomaly compared to the rest of his career.

Apples to oranges.

 

[Antropovsky]

Tavares has seen his production fall of this year in the reg season

In the playoffs over a 30+ game sample size he has produced only 22 pts or ~60 pt pace

Tavares routinely misses high danger slot chances.

Game 5 vs CBJ rielly sets him up for a tap in and he hits the post

Game 2 vs Flordia last year, nylander sets him up twice in front of the net and he misses both times

Tavares is a poor shooter under high pressure and he isnt a good finisher in the playoffs. He has missed many chances and doesnt generate many in return for his wingers like Marner can still do if hes having a poor game.

If Marner produces, then his shot selection is irrelevent. We need production that is all. Not for him to be jamming in greasy goals or driving the puck to the net like a PF

Except Marner has not been used as Tavares winger in the playoffs in recent playoffs. Likely because their playoff stats together are poor, slightly worse than Tavares/Nylander stats. 5vs5 Marner and Tavares get outchanced and outscored. There stats togethet should be much more worse than Tavares/Nylander except Marner/Tavares had the best goalies sv% among all forwards.

It's easy to look at stats on paper and think that points mean effectiveness and skill. This is why advanced stats have become so importance, because stats on paper don't tell the story.

- Matthews is more productive with Bertuzzi and Domi than he is with Marner.
- Bertuzzi and Domi 5vs5 stats are much better with Matthews.
- Marners stats are much worse without Matthews.


- Did Bertuzzi and Domi suddenly get more skilled while with Matthews, or are they seeing their boost because of Matthews?
- Does Marner get less skilled when he's not with Matthews? Or is he seeing the affects of not being with Matthews?


Matthews stats generally stay the same no matter who he plays with..

You see where I'm going with this

 

[hamzarocks]

Except Marner has not been used as Tavares winger in the playoffs in recent playoffs. Likely because their playoff stats together are poor, slightly worse than Tavares/Nylander stats. 5vs5 Marner and Tavares get outchanced and outscored. There stats togethet should be much more worse than Tavares/Nylander except Marner/Tavares had the best goalies sv% among all forwards.

Marner can play 2nd line in that case with Nylander and Tavares can play by himself and Jarnkrok + Bobby M

Knies/Robertson - Nylander - Marner as L2

 

[Antropovsky]

Marner can play 2nd line in that case with Nylander and Tavares can play by himself and Jarnkrok + Bobby M

Knies/Robertson - Nylander - Marner as L2

We can move things around all we want, but as you said Tavares isn't the player he used to be 4 years ago. Marner has never played remotely close to an 11 million dollar player in the playoffs..... and then what we have left is spent on this:

Samsonov/Woll

McCabe/Bush/Gio/Liljegren/Edmundson

It's ugly

 

[thewave]

We can move things around all we want, but as you said Tavares isn't the player he used to be 4 years ago. Marner has never played remotely close to an 11 million dollar player in the playoffs..... and then what we have left is spent on this:

Samsonov/Woll

McCabe/Bush/Gio/Liljegren/Edmundson

It's ugly

Remember many of these Marner fans are also Justin Holl supporters. People that loved Kerfoot. Hated Kadri and also wanted Jake Gardiner chased out of town for making arguably less errant plays than Mitch. Essentially loved all Dubas moves.

Its the perpetually wrong club

 

[ACC1224]

Remember many of these Marner fans are also Justin Holl supporters. People that loved Kerfoot. Hated Kadri and also wanted Jake Gardiner chased out of town for making arguably less errant plays than Mitch. Essentially loved all Dubas moves.

Its the perpetually wrong club

I can’t imagine anyone being in this club. Is there a list being kept somewhere we can look at?

 

[666]

I can’t imagine anyone being in this club. Is there a list being kept somewhere we can look at?

Man, this sub was finally ok for a week, now it's a mess again.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Is this his last yr as a leaf before being moved to Montreal to be with his wife

 

[57 Years No Cup]

We can move things around all we want, but as you said Tavares isn't the player he used to be 4 years ago. Marner has never played remotely close to an 11 million dollar player in the playoffs..... and then what we have left is spent on this:

Samsonov/Woll

McCabe/Bush/Gio/Liljegren/Edmundson

It's ugly

Careful. The Marner fans will call you a "hater" even though your facts and stats are 100% correct.

 

[thewave]

Man, this sub was finally ok for a week, now it's a mess again.

Marner better not be doing that fancy trash that was getting picked off last game. Not against Boston. I think he is great player but if he craps another PO I have no appetite to see him here again.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Him and the other big guys on this roster will have their play speak for itself.

Marner isn't above scrutiny but neither are the other players on this roster.

Let's see how the playoffs go and then we can all melt down from there.

For me, this feels like the last season we should be keeping the core group together if there is anything less than a final 4 showing.

NMC and recent contract extensions mean that likely isn't the case unless a player has a change of heart and willing to have a change of scenery.

It's April....plenty of time for change....

 

[keonsbitterness]

Is this his last yr as a leaf before being moved to Montreal to be with his wife

What???

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The top line was better with Domi. Marner is clearly a distant 2nd best player on the line, but takes everything over as if he's the top guy. He needs to either defer to Matthews as the driving force, or play with a center he's actually better than

 

[IPS]

Gonna be so annoying when he's paried with Mattews for game 1.

 

[Notsince67]

Gonna be so annoying when he's paried with Mattews for game 1.

If the Bruins can separate Pasta and Marchand, I think Keefe better consider trying something different from the past or risk losing his job. Either of those lines will pick teams apart if they aren't balanced.

 

[Stephen]

Matthews and Marner need a breakup for good. Not like a few shifts apart and then back together when the times get tough. Times get tougher when they’re together in the playoffs.

 

[1specter]

He played much better with Tavares. Leave him there