Mitch Marner, Yet Again
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notDatsyuk
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- Jul 20, 2018
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But...but...but....
I thought there was a poster repeatedly sayig that Tavares was much better with Marner than he was with Nylander.
Why even do this to ourselves it’s clear marners the third wheel Hes a more rounded player I guess imo even that’s not as distinctive effort might be the only reason we still debate this as you saw today when Willy wants to play d be safe and physical matthews is the only person that stands in his way of being the best player on the team but it’s not mitches fault nylander does what he wants when he wants looks like he’s turning a corner though hes strung a couple games together where he’s engaged on both sides of the pucc very good to see well need it incase a couple of the boys disappear
As I posted before, Domi has eclipsed 20 goals once his career and it was a career high of 28. Never came close since. But some people on here believe he’s better than Marner!! He’s the saviour of the team a first line winger!!
thewave
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I think this is the rationale but it comes with some if factors.
If Matthews is able to perform at 95% and Domi at 120% with no negative effect on Knies 5v5, and if you save 9million dollars that can be put into a good defender, a C plus if there is only a slight drop in PP%
Then you have to pull the trigger on that or not follow through with an overpay for Marner and if you do it's gotta be NMC for a couple years and Limited for the rest so we can get value back.
@666 just posted their numbers. Matthews is not performing at 120% with Domi. Their numbers have regressed as expected. Anyone who thought Domi would be a reasonable long term replacement on the top line was wrong. Just like we all thought, Domi got thrown up there when Matthews was on absolute heater last year and that skewed the numbers significantly. So when you account for QoC, zone starts, linematching and a bunch of other variables that a poster named Antroprovsky leaves out purposefully (people on here eat it up for some reason), Matthews isn’t that much more effective with Domi.
Matthews and Domi went from a 6. Something GF/60 to a 3.24 GF/60. If you thought that 6.something was sustainable, I have to question your understanding of sports. That’s why I was laughing my ass off when Antro kept bringing it up as if he discovered something ground breaking. It was never, ever going to be sustainable. Hell not even the leafs analytics department believed it would be, otherwise don’t you think Domi would be stapled to Matthews?
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ACC1224
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Thinking Domi is in any form a replacement for Marner just highlights a complete lacking of understanding the game.
Give some credit though, they put themselves out there no matter how bad it reflects on them.
I’m all for replacing Marner if it comes down to it, but it needs to be a reasonable replacement. Domi is not that (they caught a little fire last year together, but that seems to be about it) and it’s dumb that the same people keep suggesting that.
Hellcat
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- Jul 13, 2022
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We understand you are new to hockey, there is more to the game than just goals scored. If you break it down to simple terms that you will understand, there are scoring goals, generating offence and defence. Marner is clearly better at 2 of those 3 very simple metrics. I get it you dont know what you dont know but please stop with your poorly framed arguments, only you think you are making a point. Please just stop embarrassing Leaf Nation with these sort of transparent posts.
Only you would try to frame having 2 elite star wingers as a bad thing. Why pin Nylander vs Marner.. we are lucky to have both.
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Hellcat
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Those same people dont understand hockey. When I read their posts, I kinda feel like I know how Neil DeGrasse Tyson feels when he talks to us common folk.
666
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No, it was a example of what you do. Did you not see the quotes around the whole sentence. You either use a small cherry picked example or the one time that you actually used a large sample you completely ignored context like QoC. My example does both. But, I explained it to you and yet you posted it again. It's clear that you're going around advanced stats while not understanding them trying to find anything that might make Marner look bad. But you ALWAYS get it wrong. I'm glad that you finally used a good sample size it proves that you can learn but you'll get a lot more done if you compare Nylander to Marner as they are much closer.
666
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Last 3 full seasons 5v5:
This is how it's done. You need a lot of data to get ALL of the minutes up and you have to compare things that make sense. Comparing a 1st liner to a 3rd liner is the same thing as comparing across teams. Never do it.
This is how it's done. You need a lot of data to get ALL of the minutes up and you have to compare things that make sense. Comparing a 1st liner to a 3rd liner is the same thing as comparing across teams. Never do it.
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leafs in five
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let's hope you get the next head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs gig
I didn’t play hockey competitively. I played another sport and have been involved in high level athletics my entire life. Coached in u sports and in the OCAA here in Canada. Ran analytics as an assistant coach for another sport. When I dropped back down to youth level and with the provincial team as a head coach we used analytics heavily. Never in my life have I ever seen someone attempt to draw conclusions from the smallest sample sizes as much as a few people on here. That’s why I go so hard on like one or two posters in specific be side I know they are full of shit. No reasonable coaching staff in a professional setting would present data as fact like they do or even use it to draw a significant conclusion for performance. Not to mention ignoring context and multiple variables. If you’ve ever been in those types of meetings you know that discussions around lines and player personnel are much more nuanced than just slapping stats and saying “SEE”
thusk
Registered User
In reality it's not true... Marner played toughest matchup than Matthews his entire carreer especially come playoff time.
At 20 Marner was already playing vs the matchand-bergeron-pastrnak line
they had time they had been together but even last year when they had been split vs Boston, Marner played 82% of his time at even strenght vs Boston top 6, Matthews was like at 56%
This season, Ottawa game where marner and matthews had been split, Matthews only played 41 % vs Ottawa top 6 vs 65% for Marner.
Lolol, he used that as an example to demonstrate what you do. Get a clue, you have zero reading comprehension skills clearly. I don’t get how you didn’t pick that up or decipher that from the post immediately.
GoonieFace
Registered User
I’m not sure there is a person on earth that thinks Domi is anywhere close to Marner. It would be interesting to see him on a line with Matthews for an entire season though.
Bit of an interesting trend tbh as I don’t see Marner as a more capable defensive player than Matthews. Not throwing shade with this comment by the way, I see them comparably in terms of two-way play.
And I would also argue, that early career Matthews was the better of the two which makes the Babcock usage stranger in particular.
Go back a couple posts in here or the gdt, I forget, one frequent poster in here was trying to convince me that he was. So there are people that do.
And I agree, the one thing the sample size probably proves is that, that line should get an extended look to see how effective it could be over a long period of time. That’s a reasonable take. It doesn’t diminish other players for no reason. If Antro had just said that, I honestly would have no problem with that statement.
thusk
Registered User
In 2017-2018, Marner was a better defensive player and the Marleau-Plekanec-Marner line is the only combination who had been working against the bergeron line all year long. That line destroyed leafs every game at this moment and was the leafs nightmare.
With years Matthews raised his defensive game and closing the gaps between him and Marner
I don’t agree, but while I did bring it up the important thing imo isn’t really who was better than who along the way. I wouldn’t want to fixate on that discussion when they are both absolutely elite two-way forwards today.
No, it shows how silly it is to isolate exclusively one point type in exclusively one game state in an outlier sample without context to make broad conclusions about players.
Not only are you mixing up different discussions, but you seem to have zero understanding of any of the discussions that took place. You continue to prove that you don't listen.
No I haven't. You have just attempted to argue that clearly similar and inferior players are better than Marner by ignoring critical information.
He doesn't perform like Domi, and you can't just remove all game states and point types and information that proves you wrong.
The only one devaluing playmakers here is you. I recognize the value of playmaking. I also recognize that you can't ignore everything other than 5v5 primary assists per 60 when evaluating players.
That was actually part of a discussion about why Marner wouldn't have been eager to sign early after his second year in the league. You're confusing discussions, and don't seem to realize the difference between not getting something you earned due to external factors, and not earning something.
No he's not. You're just using statistics incorrectly.
You are not applying the valuable metrics and methods I use to Domi/Marner. I look at all point types, overall and in each individual game state, with context, and in multiple forms, and consider more than just production. If you were looking at this properly, you'd understand that they aren't similar at all.
thusk
Registered User
Yeah for sure today both are great 2 way player and probably the reason #1 they playing together. It's not necessairly for the offensive side but for the 200 feet game.
You can send that line against a mackinnon/ mcdavid line and get the edge.
They had been able to completly shutdown/ dominated Kucherov line in playoff 2 year ago and #1 reason why they won that only aeries last 8 ( not an easy thing to do)
When Matthews/Marner keep thing simple and playing they should, they are probably the best 2way line in NHL
PS Matthews defensive really started to take next step around season 2020-2021
Both have a very similar amount of career selke votes, both have one best season of 3rd place.
Gary Nylund
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I've never seen those two live up to their potential in the playoffs. I remember getting destroyed by the Bergeron line. Those guys looked so good, I can only dream of our guys playing that well. On paper (and based on cap hit) they shouldn't be taking a back seat to Bergeron or anyone else really, but they've just never been able to do it.
To put it another way, I guess you could say that M&M have never "played the way they should", at least not in the playoffs.
