Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Gary Nylund]

No trouble here. I can post them again for you if you like.

LOL. You can post them as much as you like, but if you don't understand what you're reading that isn't going to help you.

 

[Gary Nylund]

They traded Rantanen because they couldn't sign him.
I doubt they would have traded for another player they couldn't sign.

Yeah that seems pretty obvious. Strange though that they couldn't work it out though, I'd imagine they would have been fine paying him what he got in Dallas.

 

[666]

LOL. You can post them as much as you like, but if you don't understand what you're reading that isn't going to help you.

Look man this isn't the first time that you've acknowledged that you don't watch the games. You should have just ate this one, started to watch the games and try to build some credibility based on what you see in those games. Somehow claiming that you understand what's going on in the games without watching them just makes you look even more silly.

 

[ACC1224]

Read the room man. When Leafs Nation is Jekyll and Hyde on whether Marner should be back at all, going hard in the paint on cap percentage chit chat is just so tone deaf. Salary demands don’t really require the last decimal place to be achieved. $12.5 million, $12.7 million. $13.1 million. $14.25 million. How about 100 points and don’t embarrass yourself in an elimination game in the playoffs?

Sorry you lost me, what does that have to do with Draisaitl?

 

[ULF_55]

Okay timeout from talking about posters.

After a while you should just take it to DM.

You did. No I didn't. Yes you did.

I think we can all accept everyone here can read?

 

[LeafEgo]

We're not taking about now. We are saying if the leafs wanted Marner gone, they should have offered Marner to the Avs when Rantanen was first available. Their odds of getting that deal done were higher, Marner probably at least thinks about waiving for the Avs since they have a history of winning and he just played with MacKinnon compared to waiving for Carolina

In what world would the Avs have entertained simply swapping Ranta out for Mitch this season? That makes no sense.

They have three new centers now. And Necas.

It wouldn't even have been worth the call.

 

[Antropovsky]

No one can be this stupid.
The answer is I watch the games.
If Marner primary assists on approximately 50% of Matthews goals when he has a 16% sh% then how many times is Matthews missing Marners setups when he's only shooting 4%. Watch the games.

Who are the Leafs 3 best goal scorers? Matthews, Tavares, Nylander.

1) Matthews hasn't been separated enough from Marner this year for us make a judgement but Matthews scoring has been the worst of his career this year. However, Matthews stats in 2023-2024 and 2022- 2023 are substantially better without Marner on his line. Sample size being about 50/50 too.

2) Now let's look at Tavares:

Tavares production this year with linemates:
Holmberg - 163 mins, 2.57 p/60
Pacioretty - 280 mins, 2.57 p/60
Marner - 256 mins, 2.34 p/60

3) Nylander is scoring at a phenomenal pace this year, but isn't playing with Marner at all.

Does Marner even boost stats?

 

[fahad203]

I'm done with him as I'm done with matthews

 

[Antropovsky]

Draisaitl got 15.9%, and while he's a very good player, especially on the PP, Marner is a better player at 5v5 and and the PK. I don't think Marner is going to get 15.9%, but he will likely justifiably get in the 14-15% range. Many good teams would pay him that.

Yes, we should have pushed harder to sign Marner last offseason if it was possible, instead of playing these stupid games with one of the best players this franchise has ever had.

Yes it has. It just hasn't got us a cup yet. People need to learn the difference.

Nobody needs to go. That's an emotional reaction. Measuring "progress" strictly by round wins is shortsighted. Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all outperformed their contracts by a similar amount, and players don't get extra money now because they were worse when they signed a fair contract last time. That's still looking backwards anyway. This should be about what helps us the most going forward, and that's keeping Marner. And if we did have to get rid of somebody (we don't), that's keeping Marner over Nylander.

That won't necessarily make the depth scoring better and more consistent than what we've had though. It will just make it more expensive. Mid tier UFAs is where money gets thrown away. And even if you did make the depth better, it's still unlikely that the team overall is better, because you're losing a massively impactful piece of the team in the process.

But hey, if we had 3-5m for depth players, we could sign brand new tier of depth that we've never before experienced... Like Mikheyev! Oh wait we already had him... Like Bunting! Oh wait we already had him... Like O'Rielly! Oh wait we already had him... Like Kerfoot! Oh wait we already had him... Like Foligno! Oh wait we already had him... Like Engvall! Oh wait we already had him... Like Domi! Oh wait we already had him... Like Bertuzzi! Oh wait we already had him... Like Laughton! Oh wait we already had him... Etc.

And not only have we already had that calibre of depth, the rising cap is going to give us opportunities to sign these kinds of players in UFA without getting rid of one of our best players.

We have 8 forwards on 2m+ contracts. Of the 14 forwards that Florida used in the playoffs, 8 were on 2m+ contracts.

Draisaitl won the Hart Trophy in 2020, he's the leading candidate this year along with Mackinnon. He's big, plays center and is one of the games best goal scorers.

Marner and him aren't even close to comparable.

 

[666]

Amazing how so many ignore this fact about Marners playoff performances. Yes. Matthews carries double the load in the POs on account of MM play.

I just want make sure I've got this right. You think that Marner is so bad that Matthews has to "double the load in the POs". I have a few rhetorical questions. That means that you don't have to answer them.

1) if Marner is that bad in the POs why does he get the second more ice time 5v5, PP and PK in last three years
2) why does he get the second most ice time per game of all other players on the team even Matthews who can apparently do twice the work
3) why does Matthews play so much time with such a bad player, surely he has some say in who he plays with
4) why do the coaches alway have Marner on in critical moments and against the oppositions top lines?
5) why does what you see not match what the coaches and some of us see?
6) it's starting to appear that haters don't actually watch the games, do you watch the games?

 

[Dekes For Days]

AAV is irrelevant, % of cap is what’s important and it wouldn’t be expected to be on par with Draisaitl. I doubt he would even be used as a comparable.

The funny thing is that exactly 0 people have suggested that Marner should get Draisaitl's 15.9%. Marner likely gets in the 14-15% range.

 

[themilosh]

Sorry you lost me, what does that have to do with Draisaitl?

why models?

 

[themilosh]

Draisaitl won the Hart Trophy in 2020, he's the leading candidate this year along with Mackinnon. He's big, plays center and is one of the games best goal scorers.

Marner and him aren't even close to comparable.

smart move if leafs were looking to move marner was to the Pens for Crosby (extra year).

 

[therealkoho]

Marner gave up the puck 16 times

He carries it more I thought you knew that?

 

[Antropovsky]

I just want make sure I've got this right. You think that Marner is so bad that Matthews has to "double the load in the POs". I have a few rhetorical questions. That means that you don't have to answer them.

1) if Marner is that bad in the POs why does he get the second more ice time 5v5, PP and PK in last three years
2) why does he get the second most ice time per game of all other players on the team even Matthews who can apparently do twice the work
3) why does Matthews play so much time with such a bad player, surely he has some say in who he plays with
4) why do the coaches alway have Marner on in critical moments and against the oppositions top lines?
5) why does what you see not match what the coaches and some of us see?
6) it's starting to appear that haters don't actually watch the games, do you watch the games?

I'll start with number 5, the answer to the other ones is below:

5)What we see matches the coaches and othet NHL players are doing and saying.
- Its the reason Berube and Treliving kept praising Marner for putting the work in this offseason (because he never did before).
- It's the reason Berube keeps saying that Marners line needs to stop being so cute (when Matthews was injured)
- it's the reason McDavid said "Marner plays high in the zone" at 4nations
- it's the reason 4nations gave him the least 5v5 mins in game 3 and the coaches said they moved the lines because they thought they were too perimeter
- It's the reason McD and Marner were in an argument in game 1 and Marner later said to the media they are discussing where they want eachother on the ice.
- Its the reason Keefe held a meeting with Jumbo Joe because he wanted to address the team not scoring "playoff" style goals.
- here we are years later with Berube saying the same thing about these Leafs
- it's the reason Keefe always alluded to Marner being emotionally fragile
- it's the reason Marchand laughed and said Marner doesnt trash talk, he only talks about his dog and video games.

The list goes on and on forever really.

The answer to the rest of them is that Marner makes 11 million and plays PK. So of course he plays the most. The Leafs depth goes from 11 million dollar players to 3.9 million and then worse.

 

[ACC1224]

why models?

No idea what you are asking

 

[francis246]

In what world would the Avs have entertained simply swapping Ranta out for Mitch this season? That makes no sense.

They have three new centers now. And Necas.

It wouldn't even have been worth the call.

the avs would have definitely entertained that.

 

[Menzinger]

We're not taking about now. We are saying if the leafs wanted Marner gone, they should have offered Marner to the Avs when Rantanen was first available. Their odds of getting that deal done were higher, Marner probably at least thinks about waiving for the Avs since they have a history of winning and he just played with MacKinnon compared to waiving for Carolina

It sounds as if the AVS were fairly firm about not wanting to pay a star winger too much money, wanting cap flexibility that they eventually got from the Canes deal.

Marner was a much more attractive asset for Carolina as they were trying to bring in that star level aher.

What's the motivation for the Avs to move off a winger they don't want to pay to bring in one who wants in the same ballpark?

 

[francis246]

It sounds as if the AVS were fairly firm about not wanting to pay a star winger too much money, wanting cap flexibility that they eventually got from the Canes deal.

Marner was a much more attractive asset for Carolina as they were trying to bring in that star level aher.

What's the motivation for the Avs to move off a winger they don't want to pay to bring in one who wants in the same ballpark?

I personally believe Marner wouldn't use these tactics with another team. simple. It's kind of like how Rantanen eventually ended up taking around what he got in Dallas after making a stink in Colorado. Rantanen could have easily just walked himself to UFA and gotten paid whatever he wanted, but he was able to land on a winner and took what he could to be settled with a winner. Every player can be settled for the right place. Rantanen was willing to work Toronto, Dallas and I forget the last team. I also believe Marner probably has a list of teams he would have been willing to be more reasonable with.

additionally I don't believe the avs about the cap flexibility stuff. I think the avs wanted to control the narrative and put that out there to look better and not have their fan base question the move and then were fortunate enough to make some following moves to support that. But I do feel like they would have been open to a one for one deal if that deal was available to them. It wasn't though. I've been pretty consistent with that since the Rantanen stuff broke. I think they have always been ready to move off the player, the negotiations were shit the first time around and they weren't willing to do it the second time around. How do I know this? When the rantanen stuff broke, I went and listened to a lot of Avs people. In the weeks leading up to the trade, there was tension in the Avs locker room and amongst management in regards to Rantanen and there always has been. Many Avs people also believe that mangement soured on Rantanen long before the negotiations.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You could have gone the honest way by suggesting the large number of posts being hit, the elite goaltending, the bad luck, the bad coaching or the most important one of all the poor power play but you went with blaming Marner. To even suggest that Matthews has to fight through defenders (but only in the important games) to create his own space and that JT is some kind of playoff superstar is one of the funniest posts I have EVER seen. Watch the games.

Are you suggesting that "the elite goaltending" and "the bad coaching" and "the poor power play" only affected Matthews but not Nylander?

I guess you're admitting that Willy is a much better player than Matthews.

I watch the games and I can see that as the games get tougher Marner becomes much less a factor, which is reflected in Matthews' game.

You can't seriously believe that Marner is a major contributor to Matthews' success but is irrelevant when it is lacking.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Look man this isn't the first time that you've acknowledged that you don't watch the games. You should have just ate this one, started to watch the games and try to build some credibility based on what you see in those games. Somehow claiming that you understand what's going on in the games without watching them just makes you look even more silly.

Nope. For the last time, I've watched most of the games for my entire life, but I haven't watched as much this season as I have in the past. I've already said that Marner is having a great season, if you agree that's great and if you disagree, please explain why and do try to keep in mind that this thread is about Marner.

I hope he can carry over his play during the season to the playoffs but considering his history of fading badly after 86 games, I'm not betting on it but we'll see.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Are you suggesting that "the elite goaltending" and "the bad coaching" and "the poor power play" only affected Matthews but not Nylander?

I guess you're admitting that Willy is a much better player than Matthews.

I watch the games and I can see that as the games get tougher Marner becomes much less a factor, which is reflected in Matthews' game.

You can't seriously believe that Marner is a major contributor to Matthews' success but is irrelevant when it is lacking.

IMO it's pretty obvious that M&M have a huge effect on each other so when Marner's play drops off, Matthews' production suffers and the reverse is also true. Bottom line for me is that they're both playoff disappointments, especially Marner.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I personally believe Marner wouldn't use these tactics with another team. simple. It's kind of like how Rantanen eventually ended up taking around what he got in Dallas after making a stink in Colorado. Rantanen could have easily just walked himself to UFA and gotten paid whatever he wanted, but he was able to land on a winner and took what he could to be settled with a winner. Every player can be settled for the right place. Rantanen was willing to work Toronto, Dallas and I forget the last team. I also believe Marner probably has a list of teams he would have been willing to be more reasonable with.

additionally I don't believe the avs about the cap flexibility stuff. I think the avs wanted to control the narrative and put that out there to look better and not have their fan base question the move and then were fortunate enough to make some following moves to support that. But I do feel like they would have been open to a one for one deal if that deal was available to them. It wasn't though. I've been pretty consistent with that since the Rantanen stuff broke. I think they have always been ready to move off the player, the negotiations were shit the first time around and they weren't willing to do it the second time around. How do I know this? When the rantanen stuff broke, I went and listened to a lot of Avs people. In the weeks leading up to the trade, there was tension in the Avs locker room and amongst management in regards to Rantanen and there always has been. Many Avs people also believe that mangement soured on Rantanen long before the negotiations.

Interesting theory. Why would Marner be so unreasonable when the team has given him absolutely everything he could possibly ask for?

 

[Legion34]

Yes he did.

Marner should be above both Nylander and Pastrnak.

No he's not.

No it's what actually happened. Nylander put up 0.94 P/GP through his contract, while Matthews and Marner put up 1.27 and 1.24, while being better at everything outside of production.

He refused to sign in-season. There was never any indication that he wasn't willing to sign last offseason.

1.) So just so I understand. If Marner signed for 13 million x8 on June 30. What is his %aav in your world?

2.) you actually think that Marner is better than Pasternak and drai?

3.) recent insider reports have indicated that Marner has completely refused to negotiate throughout the entire time and the leafs have no idea what his demands are as he hasn’t made any and won’t respond.

 

[francis246]

Interesting theory. Why would Marner be so unreasonable when the team has given him absolutely everything he could possibly ask for?

Honestly your guess is as good as mine. I can only speculate, but maybe he does still hold resentment for his treatment vs Matthews. Ultimately I think it’s an ego thing from Marner, just like it was with Rantanen. Unfortunately wingers will never be valued like franchise centermen and it seems like these two felt like they should have been. (I don’t agree with them)

I do however believe the Avs are lying about the flexibility though and Rantanen’s comments post trade in my opinion support that. He was willing to be flexible. My gut is that, there was a rift beyond repair and they’ve always been open to moving Rantanen for the best possible offer. Lucky for them, they just so happened to get a deal that gave them a good player while gaining some cap flexibility. So it’s a win from a narrative perspective. It would be PR suicide if they just came out and said, we wanted to move off the player and a sure fire way to piss off the fanbase.